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Wonderment
07-04-2011, 02:56 PM
Another victim steps forward (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fgw-strauss-kahn-20110704,0,6972252.story).

Wonderment
07-04-2011, 03:01 PM
Oh, and then there's BHL explaining (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/07/02/bernard-henri-l-vy-lessons-of-the-dominique-strauss-kahn-affair.html)all we can learn (about BHL) from the "lynching" of SK so far:


Let me make it clear. If there is a lifelong combat I have led of which I am proud, it is that which consists of giving voice to the humble and to those who have no voice. It is a combat I have fought in Bosnia, in the confines of Asia, in the forgotten wars of Africa but also, and as much or nearly so, in our officially democratic world where it took decades of struggle so that “equality of rights” wouldn’t be empty words, and so that rape, for example, would be recognized as a crime.
But giving voice to the lowly is one thing.

Florian
07-04-2011, 03:18 PM
Another victim steps forward (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fgw-strauss-kahn-20110704,0,6972252.story).

The alleged victim has stepped forward many times.

Keep up your sad, little vindictive campaign against BHL. Oh, and by the way, what more do you have to say in defense of Nafissatou Diallo? American liberals like you would make me laugh..... if you weren't such pitiful imbeciles.

It must be difficult having to admit that reality often contradicts your absurd worldview.

sugarkang
07-04-2011, 03:57 PM
It must be difficult having to admit that reality often contradicts your absurd worldview.

Based on the limited facts we have available, it's really wrong for DSK to be convicted. There's plenty of reasonable doubt. Times are shitty and people get bloodthirsty. This is not one of America's better moments.

Florian
07-04-2011, 04:12 PM
Based on the limited facts we have available, it's really wrong for DSK to be convicted. There's plenty of reasonable doubt. Times are shitty and people get bloodthirsty. This is not one of America's better moments.

I agree. But the American judicial system and media are responsible in this particular instance for encouraging people to get bloodthirsty. I am not going to repeat what I have said elsewhere on this issue.

Here is an article on what the French in general think about the DSK affair.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/04/world/europe/04france.html?src=me&ref=general

sugarkang
07-04-2011, 04:19 PM
Here is an article on what the French in general think about the DSK affair.


The lessons of Rashomon need to be relearned over and over and over. I can say the same thing about the American girl in Italy. This isn't a fault of Americans, Florian. This is a fault of human nature.

Wonderment
07-04-2011, 04:35 PM
Based on the limited facts we have available, it's really wrong for DSK to be convicted.

As far as I, pitiful imbecile that I am (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=215256#poststop), know SK has been convicted of nothing.


There's plenty of reasonable doubt.

We'll see. You're probably right. The standard in a civil suit, however, is lower.

Times are shitty and people get bloodthirsty.

You think the SK arrest was due to hard economic times?

This is not one of America's better moments.

The perp walk is a disgrace -- an abominable practice at this or any other moment.

The early arrest was questionable, but American law enforcement now suffers from Romanpolanski-itis, and the alleged perp was sitting in a first-class cabin on a flight out of the country.

I think detention was appropriate, given the circumstances. The system is otherwise working properly : the defendant was released on bail, exculpatory evidence was quickly turned over to the defense attorneys, bail conditions were reduced, and the charges are likely to be dropped, given the credibility issues that have arisen.

sugarkang
07-04-2011, 04:42 PM
You think the SK arrest was due to hard economic times?
Not really. I was referring to the media's handling of it and the public's response. Civil discourse is very difficult on the internet because we're anonymous and so we don't see each other as human beings.

And then there's that issue of money deposits to the maid. That's enough reasonable doubt just by itself. I really know nothing about the case. I tend not to follow these things and I'm also similarly disinterested in Casey Anthony. I just get angry when people don't get their due process whether it's in a formal legal proceeding or in the court of public opinion. That's just the juvenile libertarian in me, though.

Florian
07-04-2011, 05:02 PM
I think detention was appropriate, given the circumstances. The system is otherwise working properly : the defendant was released on bail, exculpatory evidence was quickly turned over to the defense attorneys, bail conditions were reduced, and the charges are likely to be dropped, given the credibility issues that have arisen.

Yes, but in the meantime a man's life has been ruined although he did nothing, apparently, but respond to the sollicitations of a prostitute, whose motives will be forever unknown.

The charges are likely to be dropped, true, but not because the NY DA was particularly diligent or concerned to exonerate DSK. If the conversation between the Nafissatou Diallo and her drug-dealer boyfriend had not been recorded and relayed to the DA----almost by chance--the charges would probably not have been dropped and the trial would have gone forward. You are free to think that the system worked properly. I think it was a farce.

ledocs
07-04-2011, 07:41 PM
Yes, but in the meantime a man's life has been ruined although he did nothing, apparently, but respond to the sollicitations of a prostitute, whose motives will be forever unknown.

The charges are likely to be dropped, true, but not because the NY DA was particularly diligent or concerned to exonerate DSK. If the conversation between the Nafissatou Diallo and her drug-dealer boyfriend had not been recorded and relayed to the DA----almost by chance--the charges would probably not have been dropped and the trial would have gone forward. You are free to think that the system worked properly. I think it was a farce.

We don't know that DSK was responding to her solicitations. She could easily have been responding to his solicitations. I'm not sure that it's known that she is a prostitute, although I think that's very likely, I suggested this myself yesterday, but how regularly she practiced, for example....I also do not think it is correct to think that dropping of the charges hinges to some very great degree upon this phone conversation with the drug dealer. All kinds of things were going to come out about this woman in time, with or without that particular recorded phone conversation. The bank account irregularities would have turned up. This speeds things up. The prosecution was incompetent here, that is clear, very incompetent.

I happen to have followed the Kobe Bryant rape case reasonably carefully, because I am an NBA fan and a Kobe Bryant fan. There was a similar failure of due diligence by the prosecution there, there was also a golddigging plaintiff, she got a civil suit settlement, but the two cases bear some remarkable similarities, as I said before these latest twists in the DSK case (Tristane Banon announcement, Strauss-Kahn countersuit announcement).

I think it's a gross exaggeration, also, to say that DSK's life has been ruined, when it clearly has not been ruined. Another man's life might have been ruined by this, but his has not been, at least not as far as one can tell.

It seemed to me that Maureen Dowd's take on the case as it stands today was pretty much correct:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/03/opinion/sunday/03dowd.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

I don't mind that these politicians have to get their rocks off. But they have to be able to find ways to do so that do not put them in such compromising/compromised positions. DSK has access to enough money that he ought to be able to pull this off. When you're actually in the Elysee Palace, or the White House, I can see how this could be very tricky (no pun intended), very tricky indeed under contemporary conditions. In any case, regardless of what kind of a person Diallo is, it remains the case that she almost certainly fellated DSK and that he may have tried to compel her to do more than she wanted to do or than he had paid for or had agreed to pay for. The NYT also reported today or yesterday on an anonymous police source saying that the investigative team still believes that Diallo was raped. Obviously, just because she's a prostitute or has solicited money in exchange for sex, the client can't beat her up without being subject to prosecution. (I am not saying that DSK beat her up. I am saying that prostitutes don't lose all rights.) I don't know the law here, it must get very messy and complicated. The point is, if the charges are dropped, I think America should be ashamed of how its judicial system performed, there was gross incompetence, but portraying DSK as an innocent victim here is also going way overboard, in my opinion. He should not be having sex with low-class prostitutes, and I mean that seriously. There just has to be a lot more circumspection than this. What he did was reckless in the extreme, even putting it in the best possible light. So I still think that my hypothesis of a self-destructive urge on his part was correct.

chiwhisoxx
07-04-2011, 09:09 PM
Yes, but in the meantime a man's life has been ruined although he did nothing, apparently, but respond to the sollicitations of a prostitute, whose motives will be forever unknown.

The charges are likely to be dropped, true, but not because the NY DA was particularly diligent or concerned to exonerate DSK. If the conversation between the Nafissatou Diallo and her drug-dealer boyfriend had not been recorded and relayed to the DA----almost by chance--the charges would probably not have been dropped and the trial would have gone forward. You are free to think that the system worked properly. I think it was a farce.

his life has been ruined? his most important constituency is the french people. beyond the fact that most of them seem to have a pretty blase attitude about sexual assault and didn't really care in the first place, most of them thought he was framed to begin with. it seems like there's a decent chance he'll still run for president. and now he'll have the benefit of a lot of sympathy as the hand wringing over "rushing to judgment" continues. so how exactly has his life been ruined? some unfavorable pictures on the front of the ny post and the horror (HORROR!) of having to walk- in handcuffs in front of other people! - into a police car? I think he'll be ok.

Florian
07-05-2011, 03:21 AM
his life has been ruined? his most important constituency is the french people. beyond the fact that most of them seem to have a pretty blase attitude about sexual assault and didn't really care in the first place, most of them thought he was framed to begin with. it seems like there's a decent chance he'll still run for president. and now he'll have the benefit of a lot of sympathy as the hand wringing over "rushing to judgment" continues. so how exactly has his life been ruined? some unfavorable pictures on the front of the ny post and the horror (HORROR!) of having to walk- in handcuffs in front of other people! - into a police car? I think he'll be ok.

Beyond the fact that everything you say is incorrect or tendentious, you are right: He will be OK.

There is absolutely chance that he will run for president.

Florian
07-05-2011, 03:49 AM
We don't know that DSK was responding to her solicitations. She could easily have been responding to his solicitations. I'm not sure that it's known that she is a prostitute, although I think that's very likely, I suggested this myself yesterday, but how regularly she practiced, for example....I also do not think it is correct to think that dropping of the charges hinges to some very great degree upon this phone conversation with the drug dealer. All kinds of things were going to come out about this woman in time, with or without that particular recorded phone conversation. The bank account irregularities would have turned up. This speeds things up. The prosecution was incompetent here, that is clear, very incompetent. .

Maybe. But the conversation with the drug dealer opened up the investigation into her past. It also revealed that she had, shall we say, mercenary motives in the DSK affair. She told him, after all, "not to worry, because there was money in it." (Something like that)

Whether she could have been a prostitute should have been, it seems to me, one of the first hypotheses of the DA. Instead they proclaimed, within 24 hours of Strauss-Kahn's arrest, before they knew anything about her, that she was a pious Muslim woman, sans histoires, and that the case against DSK was "very strong." To make their case appear even stronger they leaked forensic information to the press, before it could be evaluated in a court of law. In short, they let public opinion do the work of prosecution.


It seemed to me that Maureen Dowd's take on the case as it stands today was pretty much correct:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/03/opinion/sunday/03dowd.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss.

You and I have different opinions of the intelligence of Maureen Dowd. The question of the lack of extradition treaties between France and the US, which Dowd says precipitated the arrest, is irrelevant. The DA could have discreetly carried on its investigation and arrested him upon his return to Washington and the IMF.


I don't mind that these politicians have to get their rocks off. But they have to be able to find ways to do so that do not put them in such compromising/compromised positions. DSK has access to enough money that he ought to be able to pull this off. When you're actually in the Elysee Palace, or the White House, I can see how this could be very tricky (no pun intended), very tricky indeed under contemporary conditions. In any case, regardless of what kind of a person Diallo is, it remains the case that she almost certainly fellated DSK and that he may have tried to compel her to do more than she wanted to do or than he had paid for or had agreed to pay for. The NYT also reported today or yesterday on an anonymous police source saying that the investigative team still believes that Diallo was raped. Obviously, just because she's a prostitute or has solicited money in exchange for sex, the client can't beat her up without being subject to prosecution. (I am not saying that DSK beat her up. I am saying that prostitutes don't lose all rights.) I don't know the law here, it must get very messy and complicated. The point is, if the charges are dropped, I think America should be ashamed of how its judicial system performed, there was gross incompetence, but portraying DSK as an innocent victim here is also going way overboard, in my opinion. He should not be having sex with low-class prostitutes, and I mean that seriously. There just has to be a lot more circumspection than this. What he did was reckless in the extreme, even putting it in the best possible light. So I still think that my hypothesis of a self-destructive urge on his part was correct.

I think you have misconstrued my opinion of Strauss-Kahn. I agree that his behavior was reckless, whatever he did. I see him as a victim of an overzealous prosecutor and of a very flawed judicial system. (I really do think the French system is superior in cases like this).

I regularly read Le Monde, Le Nouvel Observateur and other informed political commentary. I know exactly what the French political and cultural élites think about Strauss-Kahn. Even his friends have expressed reservations about his cavalier attitude towards women. Nonetheless he has never been accused of rape. There is always the possibility of a self-destructive urge, as you say, but since he was actively preparing a campaign to win the socialist party nomination for president, I am reluctant to indulge in armchair psychology

Wonderment
07-05-2011, 04:04 AM
Nonetheless he has never been accused of rape.

Been accused of attempted rape at least twice, by the hotel worker and by Tristane Banon. Stay tuned.

Florian
07-05-2011, 04:11 AM
Attempted rape, wonderment. You stay tuned too. I know it must be difficult when you only have one or two loony tunes in your head.

Wonderment
07-05-2011, 04:31 AM
He has been charged with six felony sexual assault crimes in NY. Here is the short description of the alleged rape:

"The defendant engaged in oral sexual conduct and anal sexual conduct with another person by FORCIBLE COMPULSION....subjected another person to sexual contact by FORCIBLE COMPULSION, restrained another person without consent...."

More description: locked the door, grabbed her boobs, attempted to pull down her panties, "forcibly grabbed informant's vaginal area...forcibly made contact with his penis and informant's mouth twice; accomlished the above acts by using actual physical force. "

Florian
07-05-2011, 04:42 AM
He has been charged with six felony sexual assault crimes in NY. Here is the short description of the alleged rape:

"The defendant engaged in oral sexual conduct and anal sexual conduct with another person by FORCIBLE COMPULSION....subjected another person to sexual contact by FORCIBLE COMPULSION, restrained another person without consent...."

More description: locked the door, grabbed her boobs, attempted to pull down her panties, "forcibly grabbed informant's vaginal area...forcibly made contact with his penis and informant's mouth twice; accomlished the above acts by using actual physical force. "

I am perfectly aware of the charges against DSK.

My remark, which you quoted out of context (either because you like to score trivial points or because you have impaired reading skills---cf. your inability to understand the BHL article a while ago) concerned the reputation of Strauss-Kahn in France. In that context, I said: "he has never been accused of rape." The charge of attempted rape, filed just recently by Tristane Banon, is not the same thing as a charge of rape (besides being impossible to prove), and was only filed in the aftermath of the NY case.