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rfrobison
05-22-2011, 05:43 AM
And I'm getting depressed (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110522/ap_on_el_ge/us_daniels2012). Where does somebody like me turn now? Pawlenty? Gimme a break. The guy is seriously charisma-challenged. Romney? Don't make me laugh.

Everybody else is either a comic relief candidate or worse, except maybe Huntsman. But c'mon, former Utah governor? And he will be savaged by the true-blue types for having worked for Obama...my president...for the next six years.

Ho-hum.

p.s. Apologies to Mr. Keefe if you've already posted this somewhere on the site. Don't you ever sleep?

operative
05-22-2011, 10:08 AM
And I'm getting depressed (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110522/ap_on_el_ge/us_daniels2012). Where does somebody like me turn now? Pawlenty? Gimme a break. The guy is seriously charisma-challenged. Romney? Don't make me laugh.

Everybody else is either a comic relief candidate or worse, except maybe Huntsman. But c'mon, former Utah governor? And he will be savaged by the true-blue types for having worked for Obama...my president...for the next six years.

Ho-hum.

p.s. Apologies to Mr. Keefe if you've already posted this somewhere on the site. Don't you ever sleep?

Quite disappointing indeed. Daniels was a bit of a tease. Pawlenty, though charisma challenged, is still a viable candidate, as is Huntsman. This does help both of their chances in locking up the "NOT MITT" vote.

bjkeefe
05-22-2011, 01:04 PM
And I'm getting depressed (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110522/ap_on_el_ge/us_daniels2012). Where does somebody like me turn now? Pawlenty? Gimme a break. The guy is seriously charisma-challenged. Romney? Don't make me laugh.

Everybody else is either a comic relief candidate or worse, except maybe Huntsman. But c'mon, former Utah governor? And he will be savaged by the true-blue types for having worked for Obama...my president...for the next six years.

Ho-hum.

p.s. Apologies to Mr. Keefe if you've already posted this somewhere on the site. Don't you ever sleep?

I have not, so thanks. And yes, I do. Which is why you beat me on this one!

Commenters are already gathering (http://doghouseriley.blogspot.com/2011/05/true-being-wiseass-doesnt-pay-in-money.html#comments) at the go-to location in anticipation. I think if you sample some previous essays (http://doghouseriley.blogspot.com/search/label/Midwestern%20States%20Governed%20By%20Surly%20Mega lomaniacs%20With%20Napoleonic%20Complexes) over there, you'll understand why I think you're misguided to be disappointed about Daniels dropping out. That he is not as egotistical or crazy or dumb or bigoted as Bachmann, Gingrich, Santorum, et al, is hardly a sufficient qualification. Never forget, among other things, that he was George W. Bush's Director of the OMB before he became Indiana's governor.

I had hopes for Huntsman, too, but I see he's not doing what I had fantasized -- distinguishing himself from the rest of the field by being unafraid to be a moderate, at least on some no-brainer issues -- and is instead trying to outrun the wingnuts to their right, so I've written him off.

Don Zeko
05-22-2011, 01:23 PM
I have not, so thanks. And yes, I do. Which is why you beat me on this one!

Commenters are already gathering (http://doghouseriley.blogspot.com/2011/05/true-being-wiseass-doesnt-pay-in-money.html#comments) at the go-to location in anticipation. I think if you sample some previous essays (http://doghouseriley.blogspot.com/search/label/Midwestern%20States%20Governed%20By%20Surly%20Mega lomaniacs%20With%20Napoleonic%20Complexes) over there, you'll understand why I think you're misguided to be disappointed about Daniels dropping out. That he is not as egotistical or crazy or dumb or bigoted as Bachmann, Gingrich, Santorum, et al, is hardly a sufficient qualification. Never forget, among other things, that he was George W. Bush's Director of the OMB before he became Indiana's governor.

I had hopes for Huntsman, too, but I see he's not doing what I had fantasized -- distinguishing himself from the rest of the field by being unafraid to be a moderate, at least on some no-brainer issues -- and is instead trying to outrun the wingnuts to their right, so I've written him off.

Unfortunately for both of us, I think that Rfrobinson is experiencing a more intense version of what Liberals have had to put up with for years: not being a big enough part of your party's coalition to get politicians to pander to you. The Republican primary electorate is just a very radical place right now, and most of these voters (incorrectly, in my view) think that 2010 proved that nominating far-right candidates won't stop them from winning election. So I would expect all of the Republican primary candidates to run to the right; the worst thing for them now is to be out-crazied by the non-serious candidates. It's going to get worse before it gets better.

bjkeefe
05-22-2011, 01:42 PM
Unfortunately for both of us, I think that Rfrobinson is experiencing a more intense version of what Liberals have had to put up with for years: not being a big enough part of your party's coalition to get politicians to pander to you. The Republican primary electorate is just a very radical place right now, and most of these voters (incorrectly, in my view) think that 2010 proved that nominating far-right candidates won't stop them from winning election. So I would expect all of the Republican primary candidates to run to the right; the worst thing for them now is to be out-crazied by the non-serious candidates. It's going to get worse before it gets better.

I think you're right that it will get worse before it gets better in the Party of <strike>Lincoln</strike> Limbaugh. However, I'd say this about Huntsman: if he's too stupid to realize (a) that he can't win this year, even by going full metal Romney on his previous positions, and (b) that the ever-increasing radicalization of the GOP is going to doom them in the general in 2012, and will not help them going forward, and so therefore (c) that now would be a great time to lay groundwork for 2016, not to mention building cred among the Villagers as a viable and responsible party leader pushing his party back from the brink, then I'd say he's got no business being president.

I think it's unfortunate that the GOP has gone the way it has. On the other hand, it's not as though the core of their actual agenda has changed much at all in the past thirty years. So, in some ways, I actually think it's good for me, and my country, that the Republicans are no longer trying to hide what they're after. It should help clue in the low-information voters, and it should help tip the perennial fence-sitters in the proper direction.

bjkeefe
05-22-2011, 04:01 PM
Roy Edroso thinks Cain scared off Daniels, but says watch out for Sarah Palin (http://alicublog.blogspot.com/2011/05/clearly-herman-cain-scared-off-mitch.html)!

P.S. Mr. Riley makes an appearance in the Comments.

==========
[Added]
And I'm getting depressed (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110522/ap_on_el_ge/us_daniels2012). Where does somebody like me turn now?

Several of the commenters over there make the good point that people like you should relax, since the recent crops of Democrats is doing a better job than the Republicans ever have at implementing (your version of) the Republican agenda.

Ocean
05-22-2011, 04:13 PM
And I'm getting depressed (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110522/ap_on_el_ge/us_daniels2012). Where does somebody like me turn now?

Why so tormented, Rob? Obama 2012. :)

operative
05-22-2011, 06:38 PM
Unfortunately for both of us, I think that Rfrobinson is experiencing a more intense version of what Liberals have had to put up with for years: not being a big enough part of your party's coalition to get politicians to pander to you. The Republican primary electorate is just a very radical place right now, and most of these voters (incorrectly, in my view) think that 2010 proved that nominating far-right candidates won't stop them from winning election. So I would expect all of the Republican primary candidates to run to the right; the worst thing for them now is to be out-crazied by the non-serious candidates. It's going to get worse before it gets better.

How is the GOP electorate "very radical"?

Tbh none of the candidates, not even Santorum, is "radical." "Radical right" is mostly an incorrect term anyway, as most parties that people label "radical right" are actually left-wing (the populist rhetoric of the Klan and other extremist organizations would fit in well with the Democrat base if you just removed "Jew" and inserted "Koch").

graz
05-22-2011, 07:04 PM
How is the GOP electorate "very radical"?

Tbh

Figure of speech and all, but your always hyper-partisan and pushing talking points. Honesty has nothing to do with it.

... none of the candidates, not even Santorum, is "radical." "Radical right" is mostly an incorrect term anyway, as most parties that people label "radical right" are actually left-wing (the populist rhetoric of the Klan and other extremist organizations would fit in well with the Democrat base if you just removed "Jew" and inserted "Koch").
Clown shoes affixed and ... we're walkin'.

bjkeefe
05-22-2011, 07:14 PM
Figure of speech and all, but your always hyper-partisan and pushing talking points. Honesty has nothing to do with it.


Clown shoes affixed and ... we're walkin'.

Good answer. And here's another (http://doghouseriley.blogspot.com/2011/05/olio.html):


• Speaking of Journal Opinion, Roy (http://alicublog.blogspot.com/2011_05_01_archive.html#8796172500947255901) finds Daniel Henninger bemoaning the damage media focus does to the Republican Presidential field. Most all the comments are better than mine, which asked who, if not Republicans, exactly is responsible for the fact that over the past thirty years backwoods superstition, gun porn, and tax opposition have been untouchable over there? Newt just proved--yet again--that you can't say anything in Republican circles which even simulates independent thought, unless it's the sort of independent thought the base lauds in Donald Trump. Journal heartthrob Mitch "5'1" Daniels is still paying for suggesting that social issues be put on the back burner temporarily in the middle of a fucking NatRev fluffing two years ago. Huckabee took it in the shorts because Arkansas raised taxes while he was governor. Th' fuck are the rest of us supposed to do for you, Mr. Henninger? Smear Vaseline on the lenses and find the correct angle to shoot all of you with a George W. Bush halo? Agree not to mention the sorry lot of candidates you've been offering for at least a decade, or the laughable bench waiting for garbage time? Jesus, you're the ones who took the intellectual wing of the party out, shot it, and replaced it with David Brooks. Now the two smartest guys in the room are Newt Gingrich and Mitch "Highpockets" Daniels, and the most popular ones are Donald Trump and Sarah Palin. There's no fucking level of media coverage which can cure that.

The reason the operative doesn't understand how radical the Republican Party has become is probably age: they've been this bad his whole life. He has nothing to compare to.

Well, that, and the world's heaviest-dutiest ideological blinders, also too.

operative
05-22-2011, 07:16 PM
Figure of speech and all, but your always hyper-partisan and pushing talking points. Honesty has nothing to do with it.


Clown shoes affixed and ... we're walkin'.

"If we keep out the cheap competitive goods that destroy (American) industry we keep out the usury of the (United States). (The Democrat party) challenges that corrupt interest of (Koch) Finance and declares that within (The US)...we will build a system, with a productive power far beyond anything yet conceived by man, with a level of prosperity, of material well-being and moral happiness for our people, beyond the previous dreams of humanity."

That could have been from Bernie Sanders, the resident National Socialist Senator who caucuses with the Democrats. But it was actually from Oswald Mosley.

operative
05-22-2011, 07:17 PM
Good answer. And here's another (http://doghouseriley.blogspot.com/2011/05/olio.html):




The reason the operative doesn't understand how radical the Republican Party has become is probably age: they've been this bad his whole life. He has nothing to compare to.

Well, that, and the world's heaviest-dutiest ideological blinders, also too.

lol. The most popular person in the party is Donald Trump? What a moron.

chiwhisoxx
05-22-2011, 07:18 PM
Sad to see Daniels skip out. I think he would have added an important voice to the debate. As others have mentioned, he is far from perfect. But up against the rest of this field, let alone Barack Obama, it's not a very difficult choice.

bjkeefe
05-22-2011, 07:19 PM
[... some idiotic quote, modified to boot ...]

That could have been from Bernie Sanders, the resident National Socialist Senator who caucuses with the Democrats. But it was actually from Oswald Mosley.

Is modifying quotes, falsely attributing them, and saying Sanders is a Nazi what you mean by "tbh?"

operative
05-22-2011, 07:19 PM
Sad to see Daniels skip out. I think he would have added an important voice to the debate. As others have mentioned, he is far from perfect. But up against the rest of this field, let alone Barack Obama, it's not a very difficult choice.

Tbh the only knock on Pawlenty is his lack of charisma. John Kerry was a terrible candidate, bereft of charisma (and lacking the legit blue background that Pawlenty has), and he came within one state of beating Bush. So I think that Pawlenty can definitely beat Obama.

operative
05-22-2011, 07:20 PM
Is that what you mean by "tbh?"

You can ignore the similarity of the rhetoric of the left, particularly National Socialist Bernie Sanders, to the fascists of the 1930s, but that doesn't make it go away.

bjkeefe
05-22-2011, 07:25 PM
... National Socialist Bernie Sanders ...

Lies aren't like negative numbers. Telling the same one twice doesn't turn it into the truth.

operative
05-22-2011, 07:29 PM
Lies aren't like negative numbers. Telling the same one twice doesn't turn it into the truth.

Sanders is an economic nationalist and a socialist. That makes him a National Socialist.

bjkeefe
05-22-2011, 07:38 PM
Sanders is ... a National Socialist.

x3

rfrobison
05-22-2011, 08:30 PM
Why so tormented, Rob? Obama 2012. :)

No! I! Can't! ;)

And a shout out to Zeke, who captures my sentiment perfectly re: not being far enough inside the tent to enjoy the circus... Zeko, you'd make a good political psychologist, if there is such a thing.

Ocean
05-22-2011, 08:46 PM
No! I! Can't! ;)

Yes, we can!


And a shout out to Zeke, who captures my sentiment perfectly re: not being far enough inside the tent to enjoy the circus...

It's more like the tent stinks. You need to get a good clean up crew.


Zeko, you'd make a good political psychologist, if there is such a thing.

Okay, if Zeke's psychology fails, I can prescribe a good antidepressant (Barackxetine).

rfrobison
05-22-2011, 09:15 PM
Okay, if Zeke's psychology fails, I can prescribe a good antidepressant (Barackxetine).

I'd ask for a prescription but I fear the side-effects: bloating, vertigo and weakness in the extremities, I'm told...

Ocean
05-22-2011, 09:27 PM
I'd ask for a prescription but I fear the side-effects: bloating, vertigo and weakness in the extremities, I'm told...

Happiness has a price. But that bloating may be due to lactose intolerance.

chiwhisoxx
05-22-2011, 10:17 PM
http://mobile.politico.com/story.cfm?id=55459&cat=topnews

interesting tic toc of the decision from politico. I didn't realize that he divorced his wife in 1993, then re-married her 4 years later. It sounds like that might have factored into the decision. It's certainly....a bit weird.

operative
05-22-2011, 10:21 PM
http://mobile.politico.com/story.cfm?id=55459&cat=topnews

interesting tic toc of the decision from politico. I didn't realize that he divorced his wife in 1993, then re-married her 4 years later. It sounds like that might have factored into the decision. It's certainly....a bit weird.

Daniels is pathologically whipped. Ultimate beta male.

AemJeff
05-22-2011, 10:43 PM
Daniels is pathologically whipped. Ultimate beta male.

Seriously, you can't claim the above and also claim to be a virgin. Until some while after you've done something about the latter you have no standing whatsoever, and no right to judge others on such things.

operative
05-22-2011, 10:48 PM
Seriously, you can't claim the above and also claim to be a virgin. Until some while after you've done something about the latter you have no standing whatsoever, and no right to judge others on such things.

Oh I'm probably doomed to end up as a beta male--takes one to know one.

bjkeefe
05-22-2011, 10:55 PM
Seriously, you can't claim the above and also claim to be a virgin. Until some while after you've done something about the latter you have no standing whatsoever, and no right to judge others on such things.

Never forget: "'Real world' experience means extraordinarily little. (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showpost.php?p=207211&postcount=29)"

Don Zeko
05-22-2011, 11:01 PM
Sanders is an economic nationalist and a socialist. That makes him a National Socialist.

Friends don't let friends read Jonah Goldberg. Also, come on Op. You don't really believe that it's fair to call Bernie Sanders a Nazi because he and Hitler both use the word "socialist" in their self-description. We could easily label you a Klansman, and probably far worse, with that standard of evidence. So how about you make your vapid point about whether or not it's fair to consider the "I believe in the Laffer Curve and that the Gay Agenda is destroying America, but Evolution and global warming are bullshit" Republican primary electorate radical without an idiotic Godwin violation that even you don't take seriously?

Don Zeko
05-22-2011, 11:08 PM
No! I! Can't! ;)

And a shout out to Zeke, who captures my sentiment perfectly re: not being far enough inside the tent to enjoy the circus... Zeko, you'd make a good political psychologist, if there is such a thing.

I've found my calling. Now I just need Ocean to tell me how to be a psychiatrist so that I can then make it political. Do I have to buy a leather couch?

operative
05-22-2011, 11:09 PM
Friends don't let friends read Jonah Goldberg. Also, come on Op. You don't really believe that it's fair to call Bernie Sanders a Nazi because he and Hitler both use the word "socialist" in their self-description. We could easily label you a Klansman, and probably far worse, with that standard of evidence. So how about you make your vapid point about whether or not it's fair to consider the "I believe in the Laffer Curve and that the Gay Agenda is destroying America, but Evolution and global warming are bullshit" Republican primary electorate radical without an idiotic Godwin violation that even you don't take seriously?

The Klan's ideology has much more in common with parts of the left (and paleoconservatives) and essentially nothing in common with libertarians so that comparison wouldn't make much sense. I think the worst thing you could reasonably call me is an Objectivist (which I am not).

I'm not calling Sanders a Nazi. That would be to suggest that Sanders is a member of a Nazi party or espouses the specific doctrines of Nazi parties. But Sanders is an economic nationalist who consistently uses economic xenophobia in his messaging, and he is a socialist. Therefore essentially he can be referred to as a National Socialist. His beliefs are in many respects similar to various fascist movements from the 30s, particularly Oswald Mosley's. To call him a Nazi would be to suggest that he has an eliminationist agenda; he does not.

Choosing to not believe evolution is not radical. It is not an informed view, but it is not radical. Nor is not accepting whatever specific claim about global warming that one makes.

The creepy fellow who has some links to Michele Bachmann (I posted a link to an article on him) is an extremist. People who use his sort of rhetoric are, yes, extremist.

Don Zeko
05-22-2011, 11:21 PM
The Klan's ideology has much more in common with parts of the left (and paleoconservatives) and essentially nothing in common with libertarians so that comparison wouldn't make much sense. I think the worst thing you could reasonably call me is an Objectivist (which I am not).

Which of course is why white supremacists used the language of libertarianism to oppose the Civil Rights Act, why white supremacist politicians and Libertarians both found a home in the Republican Party, and why the most prominent libertarian public figures in America, Ron and Rand Paul, have both expressed opposition to the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act. Because none of these people are real libertarians, correct? No True Sctosman etc. etc. etc..

I'm not calling Sanders a Nazi. That would be to suggest that Sanders is a member of a Nazi party or espouses the specific doctrines of Nazi parties.

Oh, well I'm glad we could clear that up...

But Sanders is an economic nationalist who consistently uses economic xenophobia in his messaging, and he is a socialist. Therefore essentially he can be referred to as a National Socialist. His beliefs are in many respects similar to various fascist movements from the 30s, particularly Oswald Mosley's. To call him a Nazi would be to suggest that he has an eliminationist agenda; he does not.

...Oh, I see. It was just a coincidence that you chose a label for him that was identical to the label that the Nazis chose for themselves. You were clearly making a dispassionate attempt to accurately classify Sanders, and you just so happened to settle upon "National Socialist," which was in no way meant to associate him with the Nazi Party. Pardon me for jumping to such outrageous conclusions about your argument.

chiwhisoxx
05-22-2011, 11:28 PM
The Klan's ideology has much more in common with parts of the left (and paleoconservatives) and essentially nothing in common with libertarians so that comparison wouldn't make much sense. I think the worst thing you could reasonably call me is an Objectivist (which I am not).

I'm not calling Sanders a Nazi. That would be to suggest that Sanders is a member of a Nazi party or espouses the specific doctrines of Nazi parties. But Sanders is an economic nationalist who consistently uses economic xenophobia in his messaging, and he is a socialist. Therefore essentially he can be referred to as a National Socialist. His beliefs are in many respects similar to various fascist movements from the 30s, particularly Oswald Mosley's. To call him a Nazi would be to suggest that he has an eliminationist agenda; he does not.

Choosing to not believe evolution is not radical. It is not an informed view, but it is not radical. Nor is not accepting whatever specific claim about global warming that one makes.

The creepy fellow who has some links to Michele Bachmann (I posted a link to an article on him) is an extremist. People who use his sort of rhetoric are, yes, extremist.

dude, the first rule of holes

operative
05-22-2011, 11:30 PM
Which of course is why white supremacists used the language of libertarianism to oppose the Civil Rights Act, why white supremacist politicians and Libertarians both found a home in the Republican Party, and why the most prominent libertarian public figures in America, Ron and Rand Paul, have both expressed opposition to the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act. Because none of these people are real libertarians, correct? No True Sctosman etc. etc. etc..

As I recall, quite a few liberals used the Pauls' statements to brand them as racist, which was utterly scurrilous. They did have one view that was in common with various white supremacists. Note that white supremacists also invariably support state sponsored segregation, which the Pauls also oppose.



...Oh, I see. It was just a coincidence that you chose a label for him that was identical to the label that the Nazis chose for themselves. You were clearly making a dispassionate attempt to accurately classify Sanders, and you just so happened to settle upon "National Socialist," which was in no way meant to associate him with the Nazi Party. Pardon me for jumping to such outrageous conclusions about your argument.

I realize that the first thing that people think of is the Nazis but I don't think that invalidates the comparison. I called Jack Davis a borderline-fascist in another thread and I'd stand by that. I'm not calling him a Nazi, but a fascist, because his philosophy reminds me of that of fascists.

Don Zeko
05-23-2011, 02:01 AM
As I recall, quite a few liberals used the Pauls' statements to brand them as racist, which was utterly scurrilous. They did have one view that was in common with various white supremacists. Note that white supremacists also invariably support state sponsored segregation, which the Pauls also oppose.




I realize that the first thing that people think of is the Nazis but I don't think that invalidates the comparison. I called Jack Davis a borderline-fascist in another thread and I'd stand by that. I'm not calling him a Nazi, but a fascist, because his philosophy reminds me of that of fascists.

This refutes itself. We've all had Jonah Goldberg on peddling the same bullshit before. At least then it was a new stupid argument.

operative
05-23-2011, 09:04 AM
This refutes itself. We've all had Jonah Goldberg on peddling the same bullshit before. At least then it was a new stupid argument.

Not at all. If I were arguing "Bernie Sanders is a National Socialist. His beliefs have some significant commonality with early fascist movements. Therefor he is an anti-Semite then that would be the equivalent of what was done to the Pauls. But I have made expressly clear that that is not what I am doing.

bjkeefe
05-23-2011, 11:02 AM
Intoned the GHEMRotRSTF (https://twitter.com/#%21/EWErickson/status/70283012272685056) and CNN employee one week ago today:

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4562/redstateredface.png
"The Most Trusted Name In News®"

Hat tip to Roy Edroso, whose latest wingnut wrap-up is all about the Republican candidates and ex-candidates, and what our favorite rightbloggers have to say about them. Intro here (http://alicublog.blogspot.com/2011/05/new-voice-column-up-about-latest-doings.html), full column here (http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2011/05/mitch_daniels_o.php).

miceelf
05-23-2011, 01:30 PM
Sanders is an economic nationalist and a socialist. That makes him a National Socialist.

Yes, that's exactly right.

The connotation of words never EVER changes when you combine them together into a phrase.

AemJeff
05-23-2011, 01:34 PM
Yes, that's exactly right.

The connotation of words never EVER changes when you combine them together into a phrase.

Why bother? There's likely only one person who doesn't see the point and he's not interested in bothering with little issues like credibility or intellectual honesty.

operative
05-25-2011, 10:29 PM
Yes, that's exactly right.

The connotation of words never EVER changes when you combine them together into a phrase.

My connotation doesn't change; the fact that others may misinterpret what I am saying is of little concern to me.

graz
05-25-2011, 10:31 PM
My connotation doesn't change; the fact that others may misinterpret what I am saying is of little concern to me.

And that's why you are scorned.

bjkeefe
05-25-2011, 11:10 PM
And that's why you are scorned.

And he's also scorned for being a liar about this whole thing.

Not to mention lying about not carrying what others think of the "connotation." That's the whole reason he called Sanders a "National Socialist" three times, even as he was getting called on it: because he knew very well it would upset others.

The operative is contemptible.