PDA

View Full Version : Socialist Alert!!1!


uncle ebeneezer
06-09-2010, 09:51 PM
Don't you just hate those people who suck at the Taxpayer teet?? (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/06/republican_welfare.php)

Whatfur
06-09-2010, 10:37 PM
Don't you just hate those people who suck at the Taxpayer teet?? (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/06/republican_welfare.php)


uncle alert!!! They have taken in less than $28K in the last 4 years for what again???? Oh yeah to treat "low-income Minnesotans for mental health and chemical dependency problems"

Get a life PZ! Get a clue unc and when you do link to the article from PZ exposing ohh...say...Charlie Rangel?...or whose boyfwiend again was wunning a homothexual bwothel out of a government thubsidized apartment??


"The clinic applied for and received Rule 29 and Rule 31 licensing from the state in 2003. The rules allow the clinic to receive state money to treat low-income Minnesotans for mental health and chemical dependency problems. The clinic has earned $27,564 in state payments since 2007 — and likely received more, since the Minnesota Transparency and Accountability Project’s online data only goes back to 2007. Bachmann and Associates took $1,419 in public money in 2007, $13,140 in 2008, $12,493 in 2009 and $512 so far in 2010, according to the transparency project."

TwinSwords
06-09-2010, 10:39 PM
Don't you just hate those people who suck at the Taxpayer teet?? (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/06/republican_welfare.php)

WTF?

"Dr. Bachmann has said publicly that God heals people at his clinic and that Jesus Christ is the 'Almighty Counselor.'"

These people seriously have not evolved a minute past 4000 BC.

AemJeff
06-09-2010, 10:43 PM
WTF?

"Dr. Bachmann has said publicly that God heals people at his clinic and that Jesus Christ is the 'Almighty Counselor.'"

These people seriously have not evolved a minute past 4000 BC.

P. T. Barnum would be proud.

Whatfur
06-09-2010, 10:57 PM
P. T. Barnum would be proud.

Historically, religious organizations did most of the work that government programs do today at about half the cost. Year in and year out the Salvation Army posts the best % of all charities in effective use of their donations. You three should be riding around in one of P.T. little cars.
How much you want to bet that I can find a non-religious entity doing the same kind of work and taking in more that 8K a year???

AemJeff
06-09-2010, 11:04 PM
Historically, religious organizations did most of the work that government programs do today at about half the cost. Year in and year out the Salvation Army posts the best % of all charities in effective use of their donations. You three should be riding around in one of P.T. little cars.
How much you want to bet that I can find a non-religious entity doing the same kind of work and taking in more that 8K a year???

You're referring to the wrong model. The right comparison would involve crystals, pyramids and the repeated use of the word "chakra." If they're really good, they might even hint at "Tantra."

bjkeefe
06-09-2010, 11:10 PM
Earlier:

"Gay" as an insult? Where?

Now:

...or whose boyfwiend again was wunning a homothexual bwothel out of a government thubsidized apartment??

Whatfur
06-10-2010, 07:27 AM
You're referring to the wrong model. The right comparison would involve crystals, pyramids and the repeated use of the word "chakra." If they're really good, they might even hint at "Tantra."

You must get invited to alot of parties.

[added] Who said "just as blindly partisan, just as incapable of mounting or understanding a rational argument, and just as stubbornly attached to a point of view that he can't defend. " ?

AemJeff
06-10-2010, 09:12 AM
You must get invited to alot of parties.

[added] Who said "just as blindly partisan, just as incapable of mounting or understanding a rational argument, and just as stubbornly attached to a point of view that he can't defend. " ?
That would have been me, comparing you and grits. Are you implying that my broadbrush ridicule of snake-oil salesmen is partisan?

Whatfur
06-10-2010, 10:07 AM
That would have been me, comparing you and grits. Are you implying that my broadbrush ridicule of snake-oil salesmen is partisan?

I am suggesting that where I argue in this thread that religious entities have long been successful in helping the unfortunate while pointing out how ridiculous the initial article was considering the miniscule amount of money we are talking about, you and yours choose to tar it on purely partisan grounds. Should not your argument be about how the 8k a year could be better utilized in a government agency doing the same service or showing that the paltry sum is not helping anyone? I am not religious but I do not discount the work that religious people do. The "healing" statements expounded upon by P.Z. are nothing but his own hyper-sensitiveness coming out in hyperbole. People make their own choices, I am not afraid of Joe drug-addict sitting in an hour long bible study or being surrounded by believers who really do want to help him...and if it does, why would you be?

You jump to a snake-oil salesman analogy because PZ tells you to jump. You have no idea what successes or failures this service has, but just shit all over yourself because a nickel goes to a god-based social service. Y'all just continue to amaze me with your silliness.

AemJeff
06-10-2010, 10:24 AM
I am suggesting that where I argue in this thread that religious entities have long been successful in helping the unfortunate while pointing out how ridiculous the initial article was considering the miniscule amount of money we are talking about, you and yours choose to tar it on purely partisan grounds. Should not your argument be about how the 8k a year could be better utilized in a government agency doing the same service or showing that the paltry sum is not helping anyone? I am not religious but I do not discount the work that religious people do. The "healing" statements expounded upon by P.Z. are nothing but his own hyper-sensitiveness coming out in hyperbole. People make their own choices, I am not afraid of Joe drug-addict sitting in an hour long bible study or being surrounded by believers who really do want to help him...and if it does, why would you be?

You jump to a snake-oil salesman analogy because PZ tells you to jump. You have no idea what successes or failures this service has, but just shit all over yourself because a nickel goes to a god-based social service. Y'all just continue to amaze me with your silliness.

If you're not going to even try to understand the arguments you respond to, you're useless as an interlocutor.

Whatfur
06-10-2010, 11:32 AM
If you're not going to even try to understand the arguments you respond to, you're useless as an interlocutor.

I understand your arguments. They are weak and depend on people not looking below the surface while exaggerating (or misrepresenting) that which is. But yeah, keep running around yelling snake-oil and then run away projecting my lack of understanding. Jeff, interlocutor extraordinaire.

AemJeff
06-10-2010, 11:49 AM
I understand your arguments. They are weak and depend on people not looking below the surface while exaggerating (or misrepresenting) that which is. But yeah, keep running around yelling snake-oil and then run away projecting my lack of understanding. Jeff, interlocutor extraordinaire.

Dude! I caught that edit! Congratulations. Now that you've managed to strip away the gratuitous insults, try something a little harder than merely asserting that there's nothing below the surface of an argument you don't like. Out with it man! What do I exaggerate (plenty, btw, that's called "rhetoric!") or misrepresent? Show me your value, man!

Whatfur
06-10-2010, 12:09 PM
Dude! I caught that edit! Congratulations. Now that you've managed to strip away the gratuitous insults, try something a little harder than merely asserting that there's nothing below the surface of an argument you don't like. Out with it man! What do I exaggerate (plenty, btw, that's called "rhetoric!") or misrepresent? Show me your value, man!

Good it was there momentarily just for you. Unfortunately, I tire of doing all the heavy lifting when it comes to discussing something with you and I have already pointed out the areas I have issues with and if you were half as bright as you seem to think you are you could take it from there. I think, however, that I continue to over-estimate you. So, we can leave this with you running around yelling snake-oil!! snake-oil! as the extent of your argument and move on.

uncle ebeneezer
06-10-2010, 12:30 PM
As the dingalink title should have made pretty clear, I posted this not because of a desire to explore the hand-wavy details of "soul healing" or the +/- aspects of religious charitable organizations. I posted it because Bachmann is known for being one of the most ardent pushers of the idea that taking government funds is socialism. If somebody takes a principled stand against accepting $ from the government (remember her position on the stimulus) because doing otherwise would be encouraging big government, socialism etc., then it is particularly amusing when we find out that she has been doing precisely that, in situations that are more beneficial to her personal interests.

Whatfur
06-10-2010, 01:04 PM
As the dingalink title should have made pretty clear, I posted this not because of a desire to explore the hand-wavy details of "soul healing" or the +/- aspects of religious charitable organizations. I posted it because Bachmann is known for being one of the most ardent pushers of the idea that taking government funds is socialism. If somebody takes a principled stand against accepting $ from the government (remember her position on the stimulus) because doing otherwise would be encouraging big government, socialism etc., then it is particularly amusing when we find out that she has been doing precisely that, in situations that are more beneficial to her personal interests.

Of course you did. It's silly. In this case the "personal interests" are low-income people mental health and chemical dependency problems and even in spite of the miniscule sum we are talking about it is a bit of a stretch to say it benefits MB somehow. As far as I read, there was nothing there that has Michelle directly involved at all Regardless, this money was already available through an existing program, not one she created for herself (e.g. Charly Rangel). Should the program exist? Maybe not. To try to cast this net around MB to point out some sort of hypocrisy is quite the stretch. But go ahead while at the same time don't get upset if some laugh and say "Is that all you got?".

Whatfur
06-10-2010, 01:09 PM
Let me add... isn't it similarly hypocritical for a lefty to denigrate someone on the right for helping in this way?

"That fucking Michelle Bachman who the hell does she think she is using government money to help the unfortunate!!"

uncle ebeneezer
06-10-2010, 01:18 PM
The point is not that govt $ shouldn't be used to help people, it's that people like Bachmann should stop screaming bloody murder about Socialism!!1! and the evils of accepting gov't $, when (like everyone else) she is fine with it in circumstances that she approves of. It's not the use of public money for a noble purpose that makes her a hypocrit, it's her relentless crying of foul over the exact same thing when it's done by others or through programs that she doesn't like. It's the age old problem for conservatives: "government spending is bad, except when it's on something we like." (farm subsidies, defense contracts, etc.)

Whatfur
06-10-2010, 01:33 PM
The point is not that govt $ shouldn't be used to help people, it's that people like Bachmann should stop screaming bloody murder about Socialism!!1! and the evils of accepting gov't $, when (like everyone else) she is fine with it in circumstances that she approves of. It's not the use of public money for a noble purpose that makes her a hypocrit, it's her relentless crying of foul over the exact same thing when it's done by others or through programs that she doesn't like. It's the age old problem for conservatives: "government spending is bad, except when it's on something we like." (farm subsidies, defense contracts, etc.)

I get it unc...but lets make it about farm subsidies and defense contract otherwise well we get discussions like this. We can be done.

handle
06-10-2010, 01:33 PM
It's still socialism by your own tea party's definition, and more importantly it's a violation of the the separation of church and state, as defined by your own tea party's beloved founding fathers. But as long as it's furthering your redneck agenda, you are for it, which makes you the quintessential American Idiot (great song).
But you aren't a real tea partier, are you oilyfur? You are just riding that wave in a cynical attempt to regain the power that you squandered by blindly following Bush's Son and the Neocons (great band :)).

BTW if $27k is a "miniscule sum", how 'bout a "loan"?

AemJeff
06-10-2010, 01:55 PM
Good it was there momentarily just for you. Unfortunately, I tire of doing all the heavy lifting when it comes to discussing something with you and I have already pointed out the areas I have issues with and if you were half as bright as you seem to think you are you could take it from there. I think, however, that I continue to over-estimate you. So, we can leave this with you running around yelling snake-oil!! snake-oil! as the extent of your argument and move on.

I thought so. Sorry you're so so tired. Don't think so hard, man - I know it's exhausting! :)

uncle ebeneezer
06-10-2010, 02:43 PM
You are free to start a more interesting thread, or ignore this one.

Whatfur
06-10-2010, 03:30 PM
You are free to start a more interesting thread, or ignore this one.

I tried to do both of those things already here. Bye again. ;)


Canned Response: "Nice try, Fur"

bjkeefe
06-10-2010, 06:22 PM
As the dingalink title should have made pretty clear, I posted this not because of a desire to explore the hand-wavy details of "soul healing" or the +/- aspects of religious charitable organizations. I posted it because Bachmann is known for being one of the most ardent pushers of the idea that taking government funds is socialism. If somebody takes a principled stand against accepting $ from the government (remember her position on the stimulus) because doing otherwise would be encouraging big government, socialism etc., then it is particularly amusing when we find out that she has been doing precisely that, in situations that are more beneficial to her personal interests.

Yes, and I quite agree. It's not so much the program itself, or the amount of money, it's the principle of the thing. It's like a "family values" politician getting busted for having an affair, particularly a same-sex one. The act itself is of vanishingly small concern; what matters is that the person who did it was frequently on the teevee inveighing against everyone else who did such things. And likely, especially in the case of teh ghey, casting votes against such things.

[Added] If someone with the political leanings of 'fur is having trouble grasping this, he or she should think about it in terms of, say, a Democrat known for a strident pro-union stance, being exposed as someone who approved the hiring of scabs at his or her own company.

bjkeefe
06-27-2010, 03:48 AM
Don't you just hate those people who suck at the Taxpayer teet?? (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/06/republican_welfare.php)

It appears that's far from the only sociamalistic munnies Bachmann has been happy to suck up from the federal government. Slightly old news, but new to me (http://exiledonline.com/teabagger-queen-michele-bachmann-cashed-in-on-250000-in-welfare/). Excerpts:

Teabagger Queen Michele Bachmann Cashed In On $250,000 In Welfare

By Yasha Levine

... data compiled from federal records by Environmental Working Group, a nonprofit watchdog that tracks the recipients of agricultural subsidies in the United States, shows that Bachmann has an inner Marxist that is perfectly at ease with living on the government dole. According to the organization’s records, Bachmann’s family farm received $251,973 in federal subsidies between 1995 and 2006. The farm had been managed by Bachmann’s recently deceased father-in-law and took in roughly $20,000 in 2006 and $28,000 in 2005, with the bulk of the subsidies going to dairy and corn.

[...]

Bachmann’s financial disclosure forms indicate that her personal stake in the family farm is worth up to $250,000. They also show that she has been earning income from the farm business, and that the income grew in just a few years from $2,000 to as much as $50,000 for 2008. This has provided her with a second government-subsidized income to go with her job as a government-paid congresswoman who makes $174,000 per year (in addition to having top-notch government medical benefits). “If she has an interest in a farm getting federal subsidy payments, she is benefiting from them,” Sandra Schubert, director of government affairs for the Environmental Working Group, told Gannett News Service in 2007, when the subsidies to Bachmann were first publicly disclosed.

(h/t: @floridajewel (http://twitter.com/floridajewel/status/16900016028), RTed by @srjones66 (http://twitter.com/srjones66))

Whatfur
06-28-2010, 09:30 PM
2007 tax stats. (http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/06/026634.php)

AemJeff
06-28-2010, 09:54 PM
2007 tax stats. (http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/06/026634.php)

Heh - the complaint here is what? We tax disproportionately the people who have disproportionate wealth? The highest quintile, that is the richest twenty percent, by that graph, earns sixty percent of what there is to earn in this country. And they supply about seventy percent of the tax revenue. That's a tragedy. Cripes, get a grip.

Hinderaker:

One can argue about whether this sort of progressivity is immoral, but it is certainly bad public policy.

Immoral? Take a breath, John. Bad public policy? Please. More argument by assertion from the Right.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/assets_c/2010/06/CBOGraph2202-thumb-410x328.png

Whatfur
06-29-2010, 09:33 AM
Heh - the complaint here is what? We tax disproportionately the people who have disproportionate wealth? The highest quintile, that is the richest twenty percent, by that graph, earns sixty percent of what there is to earn in this country. And they supply about seventy percent of the tax revenue. That's a tragedy. Cripes, get a grip.
Hinderaker:
Immoral? Take a breath, John. Bad public policy? Please. More argument by assertion from the Right.



"get a grip". Because I posted tax facts showing that 70% of the federal taxes collected in this country are from the top 20% of the country under a socialist heading with the hyperbolic title of "2007 taxes"? "Cripes", I didn't even bold anything. I think you know the complaints and the tragedy is happening as we type. (BTW, isn't the word "Cripes" suppose to always be followed with the word "Wally")

Ok, TBH, "Immoral" struck me a bit harsh too...there are better words to describe it like opportunistic, unfair, counter-constitutional, and self-serving.

AemJeff
06-29-2010, 09:48 AM
"get a grip". Because I posted tax facts showing that 70% of the federal taxes collected in this country are from the top 20% of the country under a socialist heading with the hyperbolic title of "2007 taxes"? "Cripes", I didn't even bold anything. I think you know the complaints and the tragedy is happening as we type. (BTW, isn't the word "Cripes" suppose to always be followed with the word "Wally")

Ok, TBH, "Immoral" struck me a bit harsh too...there are better words to describe it like opportunistic, unfair, counter-constitutional, and self-serving.

You missed a pertinent fact. They earn 60% of the wages. The numbers are exactly in line with a progressive tax system and the current distribution of wealth. Get a grip.

Whatfur
06-29-2010, 10:32 AM
You missed a pertinent fact. They earn 60% of the wages. The numbers are exactly in line with a progressive tax system and the current distribution of wealth. Get a grip.

I missed a bunch of pertinent facts. The one you chose is most pertinent to those people who are described by the words I chose.

bjkeefe
07-10-2010, 01:56 AM
Something I meant to note yesterday: Damn those brown people (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/09/business/economy/09rich.html) for buying houses they couldn't afford and thereby crashing our economy!!!1!

I can't wait to hear McMegan, Matt Welch, and every anti-Fannie/Freddie/ACORN wingnut in the country spin this one. Guess: it is all Obama's fault, for raising their taxes to record levels, even if he hasn't but because he probably will, someday.

Reminded by Roy Edroso (http://alicublog.blogspot.com/2010/07/all-class.html).

==========

[Added] In comments at Roy's:

Hunger Tallest Palin (http://jscottg.wordpress.com/)

I went nutpicking in the comments this morning and according to at least one person this is the rich folks revenge for being forced to pay for that welfare queen's third Caddy.

Also from the comments, aimai points to No More Mister Nice Blog (http://nomoremister.blogspot.com/2010/07/wingnut-base-pre-propagandized-for-gops.html), where excuses are being gathered.

uncle ebeneezer
07-10-2010, 02:22 AM
But I thought it was all the poor people living beyond their means that was the problem??...

bjkeefe
07-13-2010, 04:17 PM
Headline:

Fox News Host Thinks Bush, Cheney Should Have Been Indicted

Quotes:

They should have been indicted. They absolutely should have been indicted for torturing, for spying, for arresting without warrants. I'd like to say they should be indicted for lying but believe it or not, unless you're under oath, lying is not a crime. At least not an indictable crime. It's a moral crime.

The evidence in this book and in others, our colleague the great Vincent Bugliosi has amassed an incredible amount of evidence. The purpose of this book was not to amass that evidence but I do discuss it, is overwhelming when you compare it to the level of evidence required for a normal indictment that George W. Bush as President and Dick Cheney as Vice President participated in criminal conspiracies to violate the federal law and the guaranteed civil liberties of hundreds, maybe thousands of human beings.

Know Hope!

Link. (http://gawker.com/5586078/fox-news-host-thinks-bush-cheney-should-have-been-indicted)

bjkeefe
07-17-2010, 08:30 PM
By Stuart Shapiro (http://www.alan.com/2010/07/17/a-do-something-president-not-afraid-of-big-things/):

A Do-Something President, Not Afraid Of Big Things

http://www.alan.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/obama8.jpg

Earlier this week, Congress passed financial reform which will be signed by President Obama in the days ahead. As Sheryl Gay Stolberg notes (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/16/business/16assess.html?scp=1&sq=obama%20analysis&st=cse) in the New York Times, this marks the third economy-wide statute that has been passed in a year and a half under Obama.

The financial regulatory bill is the final piece of a legislative hat trick that also included the stimulus bill and the landmark new health care law. Over the last 18 months, Mr. Obama and the Democratic Congress have made considerable inroads in passing what could be the most ambitious agenda in decades.

In a mere one-and-a-half years, Obama has pushed through Congress bills more far-reaching than any President since Nixon. If he stopped now, his policy legacy would be the largest overall since Reagan and the largest domestically since Nixon or Johnson.

The charges of socialism, are of course, ridiculous, as both health insurance reform and financial reform left the market in a central role in these areas. However, both Obama’s critics and supporters are right to note that he has made a big difference. With 2.5-6.5 years to go in his presidency, the potential is there for him to reach his goal of being a truly “transformative” President.

(h/t: @Karoli (http://twitter.com/Karoli/status/18788272508), RTed by @sonjablair (http://twitter.com/sonjablair))

Whatfur
07-17-2010, 11:39 PM
OMG even Mort...this isn't looking good. (http://politics.usnews.com/opinion/mzuckerman/articles/2010/07/16/obamas-anti-business-policies-are-our-economic-katrina.html)

AemJeff
07-17-2010, 11:43 PM
OMG even Mort...this isn't looking good. (http://politics.usnews.com/opinion/mzuckerman/articles/2010/07/16/obamas-anti-business-policies-are-our-economic-katrina.html)

I take it you have no idea who Mort Zuckerman is or what his express point of view has been?

Hint: http://www.usnews.com/topics/author/mortimer_zuckerman

Whatfur
07-17-2010, 11:45 PM
I take it you have no idea who Mort Zuckerman is or what his express point of view has been?

Hint: http://www.usnews.com/topics/author/mortimer_zuckerman

Actually, I was being a bit faceitious.

I take it you didn't read the article.

AemJeff
07-17-2010, 11:51 PM
Actually, I was being a bit faceitious.

I take it you didn't read the article.

I'll take your word that you were joking. I read it, it's boilerplate Zuckerman.

bjkeefe
07-21-2010, 04:31 PM
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/07/22/business/22regulatespan-cnd/22regulatespan-cnd-articleLarge.jpg

Caption for the above:

President Obama signed the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act at the Ronald Reagan Building in Washington on Wednesday.

Think any wingnuts will be howling about the SLAP to St. Ronnie's Legamacy?

Story here (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/22/business/22regulate.html).

chiwhisoxx
07-21-2010, 04:41 PM
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/07/22/business/22regulatespan-cnd/22regulatespan-cnd-articleLarge.jpg

Caption for the above:



Think any wingnuts will be howling about the SLAP to St. Ronnie's Legamacy?

Story here (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/22/business/22regulate.html).

No, probably just recoiling in horror at the sight of Granny McBotox's face, which looks like a small piece of wax stretched over a lumpy soccer ball.

bjkeefe
07-21-2010, 05:28 PM
No, probably just recoiling in horror at the sight of Granny McBotox's face, which looks like a small piece of wax stretched over a lumpy soccer ball.

Noted for the record.