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Lyle
05-31-2010, 01:47 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE&feature=player_embedded

Great footage.

graz
05-31-2010, 02:18 PM
Great footage.

Yes, troll-tastic footage indeed. As you await the sensible posters that will supply context, such as, why, where, who and what? Are you licking your chops for the barrage of inanities you'll counter with?

Let's hope that sensible posters will leave you hanging.

Lyle
05-31-2010, 02:36 PM
Dude... I'm just simply providing links to raw video footage of the event. Kind of like what your friend bjkeefe does 24/7 here. So excuse me if I go right ahead and do the exact same.

Thank you very much, go grab a beer, some popcorn, or whatever floats your boat and enjoy the can of "peace activist" whoop ass opened up on the Israeli soldiers... and when the Israeli soldiers shoot back in self-defense.

Enjoy the violence (Depeche Mode).

Wonderment
05-31-2010, 02:50 PM
With all due respect to the victims of this atrocity, it's relatively small potatoes compared to the usual mass murder of civilians when the IDF is unleashed on Palestinians. This will get plenty of headlines because the victims were foreigners (apparently).

But we have seen events like this repeatedly since the original sin of the Nakba. We have seen Ariel Sharon, perpetrator of some of the worst mass murders, rise to the level of national hero and prime minister. We have seen the wars in Lebanon (twice) and the siege of Gaza. House demolitions, decades-long torture policies, assassinations. I could go on and on.

Time for the USA to wake up.

Wonderment
05-31-2010, 02:54 PM
EMERGENCY PROTESTS TODAY

NY: 3 PM TODAY, Times Square. Assemble at 47th St. and 7th Ave. Look for the JVP banner to join our contingent.

SAN FRANCISCO: 12noon TODAY. Israeli Consulate (456 Montgomery St.) and march to Union Square, Memorial Day. Please be there! Bring your own sign! 1 pm at Market and Powell.

DC: 3pm TODAY: Assemble at the Israeli Embassy, 3514 International Drive NW (Van Ness Metro Stop), moving to the White House at 5pm.

SEATTLE: 1:00 pm TODAY. 5th Avenue and Broad St, Seattle Center near the Experience Music Project.

MIAMI: 5pm-7pm TODAY, at Torch of Friendship (Downtown)

Lyle
05-31-2010, 02:54 PM
You didn't watch the videos did you... victims. Haha. Come on Wonderment. You're better than this.

Lyle
05-31-2010, 02:55 PM
Do you denounce the peace activists' violence at all? Do you have any comment about that?

Wonderment
05-31-2010, 02:56 PM
Uri Avnery: this night a crime was perpetrated in the middle of the sea, by order of the government of Israel and the IDF Command
A warlike attack against aid ships and deadly shooting at peace and humanitarian aid activists
It is a crazy thing that only a government that crossed all red lines can do

"Only a crazy government that has lost all restraint and all connection to reality could something like that - consider ships carrying humanitarian aid and peace activists from around the world as an enemy and send massive military force to international waters to attack them, shoot and kill.

"Noone in the world will believe the lies and excuses which the government and army spokesmen come up with," said former Knesset member Uri Avnery of the Gush Shalom movement. Gush Shalom activists together with activists of other organizations are to depart at 11:00 from Tel Aviv to protest in front of the prepared detention facility where the international peace activists will be brought.

Greta Berlin, the spokeswoman for the flotilla organizers located in Cyprus, told Gush Shalom activists that the Israeli commandos landed by helicopter on the boats and immediately opened fire.

This is a day of disgrace to the State of Israel, a day of anxiety in which we discover that our future was entrusted to a bunch of trigger-happy people without any responsibility. This day is a day of disgrace and madness and stupidity without limit, the day the Israeli government took care to blacken the name of the country in the world, adding convincing evidence of aggressiveness and brutality to Israel's already bad international image, discouraging and distancing the few remaining friends.

Indeed, today a provocation took place off the coast of Gaza - but the provocateurs were not the peace activists invited by the Palestinians and seeking to reach Gaza. The provocation was carried out by Navy ships commandos at the bidding of the Israeli government, blocking the way of the aid boats and using deadly force.

It is time to lift the siege on the Gaza Strip, which causes severe suffering to its residents. Today the Israeli government ripped the mask of its face with its own hands and exposed the fact that Israel did not "disengage" from Gaza. Real disengagement from the area does not go together with blocking the access to it or sending soldiers to shoot and kill and wound those who try to get there.

The State of Israel promised in the Oslo Accords 17 years ago to enable and encourage the establishment of a deep water port in Gaza, through which Palestinians could import and export freely to develop their economy. It's time to realize this commitment and open the Port of Gaza. Only after the Gaza port will be open to free and undisturbed movement, just like the Ashdod and Haifa ports, will Israel really have disengaged from the Gaza Strip. Until then, the world will continue - and rightly so - to consider the Gaza Strip under Israeli occupation and the State of Israel as responsible for the fate of the people living there.

Contact: Uri Avnery 0505-306449
Adam Keller, Gush Shalom spokesman 03-5565804 or 054-2340749
Coalition Against the Siege Yacov - 050-5733276, 09-7670801, Sebastian -050-6846056

Greta Berlin spokeswoman for flotilla organizers
35799187275
הודעה לעיתונות 31.5.2010


אורי אבנרי: בלב ים בוצע הלילה מעשה פשע בפקודת ממשלת ישראל ופיקוד צה"ל

התקפה מלחמתית על ספינות סיוע וירי קטלני על פעילי שלום וסיוע הומניטארי

היא מעשה מטורף שרק ממשלה שעברה כל גבול מסוגלת לעשותו



"רק ממשלה מטורפת שאיבדה כל רסן וכל קשר למציאות הייתה מסוגלת למעשה כזה – להתייחס לספינות הנושאות סיוע הומניטארי ופעילי שלום מכל רחבי העולם כאל אויב ולשלוח כוח צבאי אדיר כדי לתקוף אותן במים בינלאומיים, לירות ולהרוג. התירוצים השקרניים שמביאים דוברי הממשלה והצבא למעשה הזה לא ישכנעו איש בעולם" אומר חבר הכנסת לשעבר אורי אבנרי מתנועת גוש שלום. פעילים מגוש שלום ותנועות אחרות עומדים לצאת בשעה 11.00 מתל אביב לקיים הפגנת מחאה לפני מתקן המעצר אליו הובאו פעילי השלום הבינלאומיים.



גרטה ברלין, דוברת מארגני המשט הנמצאת בקפריסין, מסרה לפעילי גוש שלום כי חיילי הקומנדו הישראלים נחתו בהליקופטר על הספינות ופתחו מיד באש לעבר נוסעיהן.



זהו יום של חרפה למדינת ישראל, יום של חרדה בו אנו מגלים כי עתידנו הופקד בידי חבורה של אנשים חסרי כל אחריות שידם קלה על ההדק. זהו יום הוא יום של בושה וחרפה וגם שיגעון וטפשות ללא גבול, יום בו דאגה ממשלת ישראל להשחיר את שמה של המדינה בעולם כולו, לספק הוכחות חדשות ומוחצות לתדמית הכוחנית והברוטאלית שכבר יצאה לישראל בזירה הבינלאומית, לייאש ולהרחיק את מעט הידידים שעוד נותרו לה.



אכן, היום התבצעה פרובוקציה מול חופי עזה – אך הפרובוקטורים לא היו פעילי השלום שביקשו להגיע לעזה על פי הזמנתם ובקשתם המפורשת של התושבים הפלסטינים. את הפרובוקציה ביצעו ספינות חיל הים וחיילי הקומנדו, במצוותה של ממשלת ישראל, כאשר חסמו את דרכן של הספינות והפעילו כוח קטלני.



הגיע הזמן להסיר את המצור על רצועת עזה, הגורם סבל קשה לתושביה. היום קרעה ממשלת ישראל במו ידיה את המסכה מעל פניה וחשפה את העובדה כי מדינת ישראל לא "התנתקה" מעזה. מי שהתנתק באמת משטח אינו חוסם את הדרכים לשטח הזה ואינו שולח חיילים להרוג ולפצוע את כי מי משנסה הלגיע אליו.



מדינת ישראל התחייבה בהסכמי אוסלו לפני 17 שנה לאפשר וגם לעודד הקמת נמל עמוק מים בעזה, דרכו יוכלו הפלסטינים לייבא ולייצא באופן חופשי ולפתח את כלכלתם. הגיע הזמן לממש את ההתחייבות הזאת ולפתוח לרווחה את נמל עזה. רק ברגע שיפתח נמל עזה לתנועה חופשית ובלתי מופרעת, בדיוק כמו בנמל אשדוד ובנמל חיפה, תסתיים באמת התנתקותה של ישראל מרצועת עזה. עד אז, ימשיך העולם – ובצדק – לראות את רצועת עזה כנתונה לכיבוש ישראלי ואת מדינת ישראל כאחראית לגורל התושבים בה.



לפרטים: אורי אבנרי 0505-306449

אדם קלר, דובר גוש שלום 03-5565804 או 054-2340749

קואליציה נגד המצור יעקב- 050-5733276, 09-7670801, סבסטיאן-050-6846056

גרטה ברלין דוברת מארגני המשט מדברת אנגלית

+357 99187275

Wonderment
05-31-2010, 03:00 PM
Tikkun statement:

We regret and deplore the killings which took place as Israeli troops, in defiance of international law, boarded and assaulted, wounded many and killed some of the participants in a flotilla seeking to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza (itself a morally outrageous policy) to bring humanitarian aid. We ask all people of peace to dedicate at least fifteen minutes today (Memorial day in the US) to silent memorial for those peace activists who have been killed (and we call upon all synagogues around the world to say Kaddish for those people at their Shabbat services this coming weekend), and for prayer for the speedy recovery of all those wounded in this attack (mostly peace activists, but the Israeli soldiers who boarded the boats with violence). We invite all peace-loving people to attend a public memorial for those who died in this assault in Lafayette Park opposite the White House on Sunday, June 13, at 11 a.m-2 p.m., sponsored by Tikkun, the Network of Spiritual Progressives, and many other groups, and which will include a larger consideration of U.S. policies. Memorial prayers and prayers for healing will be said at 1 p.m.

Lyle
05-31-2010, 03:17 PM
Where's the condemnation of the violence against the soldiers?

Lyle
05-31-2010, 03:20 PM
http://legalinsurrection.blogspot.com/2010/05/useful-idiots-condemn-israel.html

The flotilla was organized by the Islamist government in Turkey to aid Hamas with the goal of opening up shipping channels for Turkey's new friend, Iran, to ship more and better weapons as it is doing to Hezbollah in Lebanon. Iran is busy turning Lebanon and Syria into one large missile launching pad against Israel, and a southern base in Gaza will complete the encirclement of Israel for the coming crisis over Iran's nuclear program.

The Europeans on the ships were cover, and the placement of an 18-month old child on these ships was the utmost cynical use of a human shield.

If getting humanitarian supplies to Gaza really was the goal, this flotilla was not necessary. The supplies would have been off-loaded in Eqypt or Israel and then shipped in by land after being checked for hidden weapons.

And that is the rub, only sea-based shipping would provide Iran with the mechanism for almost unlimited armament of Hamas. There is a limit to the quantity and size of missiles and other armaments which can be smuggled through tunnels from Egypt. That is why the sea blockade must be broken for Iran to get what it wants.

But the useful idiots (no offense to idiots) in the left-wing blogosphere ignore this reality, and use the incident for their ultimate goal, which is the cut off of U.S. support for Israel.

bjkeefe
05-31-2010, 03:27 PM
Dude... I'm just simply providing links to raw video footage of the event. Kind of like what your friend bjkeefe does 24/7 here.

As far as I can recall, I have never posted context-free video footage to make or even to support a point, let alone merely to stir up trouble.

I grant that I supply numerous links to news articles and blog posts, and the occasional clip from a TV news program, with the aim of calling attention to the inanity of people like you, but I'm sure that most people who hang out here can see that what I am doing is building a case by accruing examples relevant to the theme of a given thread; e.g., the Republican Party is turning into a cult, the far right is excessively prone to using violent rhetoric, Sarah Palin is jaw-droppingly stupid, wingnuts say the darnedest things, etc.

I am not surprised that you are unable to see the distinction, but, as with most things involving intellect and an appreciation for context, you are in a small minority compared to the rest of this community.

bjkeefe
05-31-2010, 03:32 PM
With all due respect to the victims of this atrocity, it's relatively small potatoes compared to the usual mass murder of civilians when the IDF is unleashed on Palestinians. This will get plenty of headlines because the victims were foreigners (apparently).

But we have seen events like this repeatedly since the original sin of the Nakba. We have seen Ariel Sharon, perpetrator of some of the worst mass murders, rise to the level of national hero and prime minister. We have seen the wars in Lebanon (twice) and the siege of Gaza. House demolitions, decades-long torture policies, assassinations. I could go on and on.

The most recent example (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/world/middleeast/01flotilla.html), it would appear, although we should probably wait for further reports before drawing any firm conclusions.

Lyle
05-31-2010, 03:36 PM
Haha. Man you're ridiculous. :) And technically I did offer a comment... I wrote, "great footage". Haha.

bjkeefe
05-31-2010, 03:46 PM
Haha. Man you're ridiculous. :) And technically I did offer a comment... I wrote, "great footage". Haha.

If you're persisting in retyping "haha" because you like to be a pest, save yourself some work. The jury has already rendered a verdict, for this and a myriad of other reasons, and now you're just pissing in the ocean.

Lyle
05-31-2010, 03:47 PM
I forgot to tell you, but your first comment is beyond disturbing. That you can write such hypocritical stupidity is disturbing. You really need help man. I mean seriously. Get help.

bjkeefe
05-31-2010, 04:03 PM
I forgot to tell you, but your first comment is beyond disturbing. That you can write such hypocritical stupidity is disturbing. You really need help man. I mean seriously. Get help.

Just asserting it doesn't make it so. I invite you to explain yourself, an invitation which I am certain will be declined, or at best, met incoherently.

Lyle
05-31-2010, 04:13 PM
I think you're disturbed. This isn't the first time, with a straight face, you've complained about people doing the exact thing it is you do just because they disagree with you, have a different perspective than you, or of a different political stripe.

In your disturbed head you actually think you're absolutely right and can post or link whatever you want to about whomever, and then when someone else does it... oh, they're a Republican (I'm not even one)... can't do that. You call people stupid, but you're above being called stupid or your ideas stupid.

You're a joke of a human being and I wish you would get some help. You're a bit crazy. I'm serious. Seek help. You're not right in the head. Seriously. You are an embarrassment to yourself and your cherished cause.

bjkeefe
05-31-2010, 04:23 PM
I forgot to tell you, but your first comment is beyond disturbing. That you can write such hypocritical stupidity is disturbing. You really need help man. I mean seriously. Get help.

Just asserting it doesn't make it so. I invite you to explain yourself, an invitation which I am certain will be declined, or at best, met incoherently.

I think you're disturbed. ... In your disturbed head ... I wish you would get some help. You're a bit crazy. I'm serious. Seek help. You're not right in the head. ...

Repeating your assertions, no matter the number of times, does not count as explaining yourself.

As I said earlier (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=163290#post163290), I am not at all surprised that you are unable to see the distinction between the posts I put up and the sort of context-free (and often borderline racist) trouble-making you indulge in, but that is of little concern, because I know pretty much everyone else here can make that distinction.

Lyle
05-31-2010, 04:30 PM
Haha... yeah, that may actually be, but that just says something about you and the bh.tv commentariat. Haha. :)

Lyle
05-31-2010, 04:44 PM
Wonderment,

I asked you a question. Do you condemn the violence of the activists against the Israeli soldiers?

Lyle
05-31-2010, 04:56 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buzOWKxN2co&feature=player_embedded#!

Enjoy the violence.

bjkeefe
05-31-2010, 05:01 PM
Haha... yeah, that may actually be, but that just says something about you and the bh.tv commentariat. Haha. :)

Not sure why you're laughing right after admitting that pretty much everyone here is smarter than you, but then, assuming rationality when dealing with you is rarely appropriate.

bjkeefe
05-31-2010, 05:02 PM
Enjoy the violence.

Noted for the record.

Lyle
05-31-2010, 05:08 PM
Haha... keep digging your hole. Oooh... you say you and everybody else is "smarter" than me. Is that supposed to hurt my feelings? Haha. :)

bjkeefe
05-31-2010, 05:09 PM
Haha... keep digging your hole. ... Haha. ...

Exactly.

Lyle
05-31-2010, 05:10 PM
Oh. My. God. He's notated it for the record. Run away Lyle, run away.

Lyle
05-31-2010, 05:11 PM
Precisely. :)

bjkeefe
05-31-2010, 05:11 PM
Run away Lyle, run away.

.

Lyle
05-31-2010, 05:12 PM
!

Wonderment
05-31-2010, 05:53 PM
Glenn Greenwald (http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/05/31/israel/index.html#postid-updateA6)on Obama administration response:


UPDATE VI: Among the countries condemning Israel for its attack are Russia, Turkey, India, China, Brazil, France, Spain and many more. By stark contrast, the White House issued a statement which conspicuously refused to condemn the Israelis (Obama "expressed deep regret at the loss of life in today’s incident, and concern for the wounded"), while the U.S. State Department actually hinted at condemning the civilians delivering the aid ("we support expanding the flow of goods to the people of Gaza. But this must be done in a spirit of cooperation, not confrontation").

Obama's call for "learning all the facts and circumstances" is reasonable enough, but all these other countries made clear that this attack could never be justified based on what is already indisputably known: namely, that the ship attacked by Israel was in international waters and it resulted in the deaths and injuries to dozens of civilians but no Israeli soldiers were killed and a tiny handful injured. In any event, Obama's neutrality will have to give way to a definitive statement one way or the other, and soon.

Wonderment
05-31-2010, 06:07 PM
Do you condemn the violence of the activists against the Israeli soldiers?

It is sad that Israeli violators of international law and defenders of an illegal blockade were hurt on the high seas in the course of their piracy, assault and abduction attempts.

Also sad is how perversely you have interpreted this event to serve your ideological view that everything the criminal Israeli government does in its perpetual war on Palestinians is acceptable.

Lyle
05-31-2010, 06:11 PM
Good for Obama. Fist bump baby.

Lyle
05-31-2010, 06:11 PM
Since you will not condemn the violence, I assume you agree with the violence that was used against the Israelis. Lets be honest you wanted to be right there with them stabbing, throwing, beating, and hurting them... didn't you? :)

By the way, what international law did Israel violate again?

JonIrenicus
05-31-2010, 06:19 PM
Dead "activists" in exchange for bad pr for Israel. In the minds of many of the organizers, I am convinced this was a positive trade. But then the lives of their own people were never that important, better they be used as tools to an end.


And in that they have succeeded. Congratulations.

Over 6000 posts/articles and counting.

http://news.google.com/news/more?pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&ncl=d1OpmJPmbiBrDzMSblkImFvcqk-3M&topic=h


Which was the plan and the hope all along.

Oh please let our own people be killed by Israelis so that a pr victory can be scored.

What a noble people.

Lyle
05-31-2010, 06:21 PM
Amen.

Wonderment
05-31-2010, 06:28 PM
International law...


By the way, what international law did Israel violate again?

UN Special Rapporteur for the Occupied Palestinian Territories, Richard Falk, urged Monday the international community to bring to justice those responsible for the killing of some 16 unarmed peace activist, when Israeli armed commandos stormed a convoy of ships carrying aid to Gaza.

"Israel is guilty of shocking behavior by using deadly weapons against unarmed civilians on ships that were situated in the high seas where freedom of navigation exists, according to the law of the seas," Mr. Falk said. "It is essential that those Israelis responsible for this lawless and murderous behavior, including political leaders who issued the orders, be held criminally accountable for their wrongful acts."

By sailing directly to Gaza, outside of Israeli waters, with cargo banned illegally by Israel, such as the 10,000 tonnes of badly needed concrete, toys, workbooks, chocolate, pasta and substantial medical supplies, the flotilla is exercising international law and upholding article 33 of the Geneva Convention which clearly states that collective punishment is a crime against humanity.

The hardships of Israel's closure of Gaza have been well documented by all human rights groups operating, most recently by Amnesty International in their Annual Human Rights Report concluding that the siege has "deepened the ongoing humanitarian crisis. Mass unemployment, extreme poverty, food insecurity and food price rises caused by shortages left four out of five Gazans dependent on humanitarian aid. The scope of the blockade and statements made by Israeli officials about its purpose showed that it was being imposed as a form of collective punishment of Gazans, a flagrant violation of international law."

For updates go to http://witnessgaza.com/ and http://www.freegaza.org/

bjkeefe
05-31-2010, 06:33 PM
It is sad that Israeli violators of international law and defenders of an illegal blockade were hurt on the high seas in the course of their piracy, assault and abduction attempts.

TBogg's take (http://tbogg.firedoglake.com/2010/05/31/israels-act-like-a-pirate-day-goes-predictably-awry/).

Wonderment
05-31-2010, 06:54 PM
The real gem is in the link to Commentary and Noah Pollack's (http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/category/contentions)column in which he calls the peace activists, including the Nobel Peace Prize winner and the 85-year-old Jewish concentration camp survivor "an Islamist lynch mob."

There are claims that the Islamist lynch mob aboard one of the ships is actually a group of “peace activists.” Mahmoud Abbas says that the IDF “slaughtered” the “peace activists.” J Street should explain precisely which claims made by the Israeli government are “propaganda.” When the Gaza war started in 2008, J Street said that there was no difference between terrorists trying to murder Israeli civilians and the Israeli military trying to stop those attacks. Here we have another easy slide into moral equivalence.

It is a classically demented J Street product: there is moral equivalence; the refusal to place blame on the guilty party; the eager repetition of Islamist propaganda by classifying terrorists as civilians; outright sympathy with the lynch mob, which J Street incorrectly says was composed of civilians, and the expression of condolences for those who tragically lost their lives as they tried to beat and stab Jews to death; and, ultimately, the laying of blame on Israel, which created this whole situation in the first place with its cruel and pointless Gaza blockade.

Whatfur
05-31-2010, 07:17 PM
The real gem is in the link to Commentary and Noah Pollack's (http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/category/contentions)column in which he calls the peace activists, including the Nobel Peace Prize winner and the 85-year-old Jewish concentration camp survivor "an Islamist lynch mob."

The company we keep. Pretty sure Lyle referred to them as Peace activists. Pretty sure he was going for irony. Including the above only adds to the irony. As peace activists, and as a pacifist yourself would you have been able to come up with a different response?

Lyle
05-31-2010, 07:57 PM
Haha... they broke no law. A UN official said... haha.

Wonderment
05-31-2010, 08:03 PM
. In the minds of many of the organizers, I am convinced this was a positive trade. But then the lives of their own people were never that important, better they be used as tools to an end.

You're the tool who is being used, Jon.

Lyle
05-31-2010, 08:07 PM
Haha... I love you Wonderment, but respectfully you're an idiot par excellence. You can't even condemn the violence of the "peace activists". You have a great big heart man, but you're wasting it on the wrong human beings. What a tragedy.

Don Zeko
05-31-2010, 08:08 PM
Dead "activists" in exchange for bad pr for Israel. In the minds of many of the organizers, I am convinced this was a positive trade. But then the lives of their own people were never that important, better they be used as tools to an end.


And in that they have succeeded. Congratulations.

Over 6000 posts/articles and counting.

http://news.google.com/news/more?pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&ncl=d1OpmJPmbiBrDzMSblkImFvcqk-3M&topic=h


Which was the plan and the hope all along.

Oh please let our own people be killed by Israelis so that a pr victory can be scored.

What a noble people.

I wonder how many people said the same about dead civil rights activists in Mississippi.

Lyle
05-31-2010, 08:32 PM
Haha... you're comparing this to dead civil rights people in Mississippi. Oh. My. God.

Tell us Don Zeko, how many civil rights people down in Mississippi brought knives, pipes, and stun grenades to their marches?

Educate the community please.

Wonderment
05-31-2010, 08:49 PM
I love you Wonderment, but respectfully you're an idiot

Thanks. Likewise.

Lyle
05-31-2010, 09:49 PM
Yep, you're on team "we throw people off buildings when they get in our way".

You can't ever again claim to be non-violent. You're whole anti-war and anti-violence "pacifism" credibility is kaput Dude.

bjkeefe
05-31-2010, 10:08 PM
Yep, you're on team "we throw people off buildings when they get in our way".

You can't ever again claim to be non-violent. You're whole anti-war and anti-violence "pacifism" credibility is kaput Dude.

Having once again done less than nothing to earn it -- if there was anything under his name besides empty assertions and forty-eleven hahas, I sure didn't see it -- Lial declares victory. Color me shocked.

Next thing you know, he'll be back (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=106617&highlight=paglia#post106617) to praising Camille Paglia (http://thepoorman.net/2010/05/19/please-remember-to-update-your-salon-subscription/).

Lyle
05-31-2010, 10:19 PM
I love Camille Paglia. That's one lesbian I'd have a child with for sure. Lovely, lovely woman.

By the way, where do I declare victory? Victory for what? Not sure I was doing battle or fighting anyone. Let me know though. :)

bjkeefe
05-31-2010, 10:24 PM
I love Camille Paglia.

Noted for the record.

By the way, where do I declare victory?

Forget it, Lial. That won't work. I'm more than experienced enough to recognize when you've got nothing left to fall back on but your disingenuousness, which then leads to your changing the subject and trying to make your argument about that, which ultimately leads to nothing but more empty assertions having no connection with reality, and, of course, to ever more hahas.

Maybe you should just go back to (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=163317#post163317) masturbating to violent video clips.

Lyle
05-31-2010, 10:30 PM
Too cute, bjkeefe, too cute. You're a sociopath or something. :)

... and that second part of yours... sorry, but I have no clue what you're trying to communicate. What supposed dishonesty of mine are you referring too? Quote me verbatim please.

bjkeefe
05-31-2010, 10:54 PM
... I have not clue ...

No argument there.

Quote me verbatim please.

I have been. Anyone who doesn't think so can click the little arrow icons.

Though he or she should be careful to note the timestamps of any post that says "last edited by Lyle."

Lyle
05-31-2010, 10:56 PM
I mean quote the alleged dishonesty verbatim... go ahead and give it to us. Come, on hurry up... we don't have all day.

bjkeefe
05-31-2010, 11:06 PM
I mean quote the alleged dishonesty verbatim... go ahead and give it to us. Come, on hurry up... we don't have all day.

I already quoted (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=163369#post163369) you on the point I wanted to make.

I can see you're once again getting yourself all wound up, and looking to argue about anything at all, in hopes of latching onto some tangent, rather than just acknowledging the original post. This is getting to be like the Skip Gates thread, or one of your seventeen threads on why you hate teh Muslins, or pretty much every exchange where you've gone off your Adderall, so I think I'll just let you stew in your own juices for a while.

Lyle
05-31-2010, 11:09 PM
... and where's the dishonesty again? I'm not seeing any beef on that bone bjkeefe. And I thought this had something to do with this thread. Haha.

bjkeefe
06-01-2010, 12:49 AM
Time for the USA to wake up.

I think we are. At least some of us. From John Cole's "Flotilla Round-Up (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/05/31/flotilla-round-up/):"

2.) Ian Welsh notes that (http://www.ianwelsh.net/holy-sweet-lord-turkey-has-announced-they-will-send-another-flotilla-to-gaza%E2%80%94escorted-by-the-turkish-navy/) Turkey can invoke article V in the NATO alliance, because Turkey is a NATO member, and lo and behold, the Turkish have asked and been granted an emergency NATO meeting (http://www.acus.org/natosource/nato-hold-meeting-israeli-attack).

3.) Israel’s behavior was so stupid and self-defeating (as well as unconscionable) that the normally straight-laced Dan Drezner is dropping multiple f-bombs (http://drezner.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/05/31/israels_increasingly_untenable_situation).

4.) Glenn Greenwald asks us to imagine the coverage at Commentary and the Weekly Standard if Iran had boarded a humanitarian ship in international waters and killed a dozen or so civilians.

But I'm sure things'll calm down soon:

1.) Turkey vows to send more aid to Gaza (http://ibnlive.in.com/news/turkey-threatens-action-israel-on-alert/116743-2.html), this time guarded with Turkish Naval vessels.

Also, though he's from the UK and so not quite what you asked for, FlyingRodent's post (http://flyingrodent.blogspot.com/2010/05/self-clowning-lunatics-strike-again.html) deserves a look (h/t: one of the secret cabal).

Don Zeko
06-01-2010, 01:08 AM
Haha... you're comparing this to dead civil rights people in Mississippi. Oh. My. God.

Tell us Don Zeko, how many civil rights people down in Mississippi brought knives, pipes, and stun grenades to their marches?

Educate the community please.

More than zero, that's for sure. But I think you're missing my point. Let's return to Jon's post:

Dead "activists" in exchange for bad pr for Israel. In the minds of many of the organizers, I am convinced this was a positive trade. But then the lives of their own people were never that important, better they be used as tools to an end. And in that they have succeeded. Congratulations.

As I see it, the logic of non-violent resistance is that you perceive a state to be engaged in unjust behavior*, so you find some non-violent way to challenge that behavior in order to essentially dare the state to use violence against you. You don't necessarily want the state to kill you or imprison you, but you want to force them to either let your protest go forward or use violence against you. Confronting the injustice, and therefore putting yourself and your compatriots in danger, is necessary to dramatize the injustice of the situation. This flotilla of aid for Gaza fits this mold, in that its organizers perceive the blockade to be unjust and wanted to dramatize the injustice of it by forcing the Israelis to either use military force to keep food and humanitarian supplies out of Gaza or to allow a partial break in the blockade.

The idea that this reflected a disregard for the lives of the activists, based upon what we know about the situation, is no more true here than it was for Gandhi or MLK. Beyond that, I find it fairly disgusting how quickly you and Jon have sprung to the defense of the commandos that just seized a ship full of humanitarian supplies in international waters and killed ten people in the process. If nothing else, can we at least stop and point out how mind-numbingly stupid this was?

*I don't want to talk about the specifics here. I'm sure we disagree about the morality of the blockade of Gaza, the settlements, the continued occupation, etc. etc. etc., but I think it is theoretically possible to make my point without reference to these things.

Lyle
06-01-2010, 01:18 AM
Actually it's not cause they're nothing alike, which you seem to acknowledge by refusing to "talk about the specifics". Hehe.

Who's the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. in all of this?

Lyle
06-01-2010, 01:19 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6jDIQr59Sk&feature=player_embedded#!

"The Israeil government supports delivery of humanitarian supplies to the civilian population in the Gaza strip"

JonIrenicus
06-01-2010, 01:28 AM
More than zero, that's for sure. But I think you're missing my point. Let's return to Jon's post:



As I see it, the logic of non-violent resistance is that you perceive a state to be engaged in unjust behavior*, so you find some non-violent way to challenge that behavior in order to essentially dare the state to use violence against you. You don't necessarily want the state to kill you or imprison you, but you want to force them to either let your protest go forward or use violence against you. Confronting the injustice, and therefore putting yourself and your compatriots in danger, is necessary to dramatize the injustice of the situation. This flotilla of aid for Gaza fits this mold, in that its organizers perceive the blockade to be unjust and wanted to dramatize the injustice of it by forcing the Israelis to either use military force to keep food and humanitarian supplies out of Gaza or to allow a partial break in the blockade.

The idea that this reflected a disregard for the lives of the activists, based upon what we know about the situation, is no more true here than it was for Gandhi or MLK. Beyond that, I find it fairly disgusting how quickly you and Jon have sprung to the defense of the commandos that just seized a ship full of humanitarian supplies in international waters and killed ten people in the process. If nothing else, can we at least stop and point out how mind-numbingly stupid this was?

*I don't want to talk about the specifics here. I'm sure we disagree about the morality of the blockade of Gaza, the settlements, the continued occupation, etc. etc. etc., but I think it is theoretically possible to make my point without reference to these things.


I am just incredibly cynical when it comes to certain types of activists, to the point where I actually believe a large number of them are more satisfied that Israel went overboard and killed some of them, and thus handed the group a major pr victory and display of how "malevolent" Israel is than they do about the lives of their own people. That if given a choice, a peaceful end to the flotilla demonstration, vs what happened, a large number of them would PREFER what happened.


btw, yes this was a stupid reaction from Israel. They got baited, and whether they practiced actual defense or went on some free form assault, it looks bad, and so they aided the protesters in accomplishing their mission. The bad intentions of non westerners do not matter, in that region, the only group held to any standard is Israel, and they need to act accordingly to the double standard the left demands.

AemJeff
06-01-2010, 01:31 AM
I am just incredibly cynical when it comes to certain types of activists, to the point where I actually believe a large number of them are more satisfied that Israel went overboard and killed some of them, and thus handed the group a major pr victory and display of how "malevolent" Israel is than they do about the lives of their own people. That if given a choice, a peaceful end to the flotilla demonstration, vs what happened, a large number of them would PREFER what happened.

That's quite an accusation. Maybe you should back it up with something more compelling than your "cynicism."

Don Zeko
06-01-2010, 01:31 AM
By "talking about the specifics" I meant "re-litigating the morality of every major action taken by every participant in the conflict over the past 60 years or more," which is the usual way that any and all discussions involving Israel get sidetracked. Jon made an argument about how the tactics of this particular protest reflected upon the motivations and values of the people that organized it that I thought was wrong. Whether or not Jon's characterization was valid has nothing to do with, say, the morality of the blockade.

But yes, by all means, go back to applauding yet another appalling act by an Israeli government that cares less and less about humanitarian concerns or international law when they interfere with its quixotic quest for security. I'm sure that living in an apartheid state with no friends in the international community besides the U.S., and maybe not even us, will be great for Zionism.

Don Zeko
06-01-2010, 01:36 AM
The bad intentions of non westerners do not matter, in that region, the only group held to any standard is Israel, and they need to act accordingly to the double standard the left demands.

Double Standard? How many on the left have any love for Hamas, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, or the House of Saud? We care about Israeli actions because the United States gives them money, military hardware, and diplomatic support while claiming that we do it because they're the only country in the region that shares our liberal values. If we're going to give them that support, then they'd damn well better share those liberal values.

Don Zeko
06-01-2010, 01:37 AM
But yes, by all means, go back to applauding yet another appalling act by an Israeli government that cares less and less about humanitarian concerns or international law when they interfere with its quixotic quest for security. I'm sure that living in an apartheid state with no friends in the international community besides the U.S., and maybe not even us, will be great for Zionism.

This paragraph was more confrontational than it should have been. Sorry for the excessively heated tone.

Lyle
06-01-2010, 01:38 AM
Israel didn't act inhumanely or violate a single international law. And funny, as Jon said, it's only Israel's so called inhumanity and pariah law breaking that seems to be a problem. No, throwing people off the tops of buildings ain't a problem. No, opening open the Gaza coast to terrorist trading, ain't a problem. Pretending to be peace activists... nope, ain't a problem.

Haha... too comical. What a horrible future we're all going to have.

Lyle
06-01-2010, 01:42 AM
And Israel doesn't? And who are you kidding? Obama is a war criminal according to certain "liberal values"... you know, drone attacks, trying to assassinate American citizens, shooting teenage black pirates, etc...

Oh yeah, you have room to talk about "liberal values". You're up to your neck in blood kiddo, cause unlike with Bush Obama in your name kills, kills, kills.

Don Zeko
06-01-2010, 01:52 AM
And Israel doesn't? And who are you kidding? Obama is a war criminal according to certain "liberal" values... you know, drone attacks. Assassinating American citizens, shooting teenage black pirates, etc...

Oh yeah, you have room to talk about "liberal values". You're up to your neck in blood kiddo.

Oh, so even though I have a problem with the actions you're discussing(except for shooting the pirates), because I'm an American citizen I can't criticize other countries for doing similarly bad things? Let's explore this logic a bit. So the U.S. interned Japanese-Americans during WW2. It seems that if Iran were to round its Christian population up in internment camps, I would have no right to criticize that behavior, right? And of course if war were to break out between North and South Korea, and the DPRK destroyed Seoul with artillery fire I'd have no right to complain. I mean, we fire-bombed Dresden and Tokyo, didn't we? Why, once you throw in how the US treated the Native Americans, it's almost as if this logic could be used to shut up any American critic of any human rights abuses anywhere. And yet it's only used to defend Israel. Funny, that.

Also, I find it fascinating that, now that I'm trying to criticize Israel instead of Iran or North Korea or whatever, you're willing to admit that American human rights abuses do reduce our credibility when we try to stop the bad behavior of others. Tell me, why wasn't torture on your list of American wrongs, again?

grits-n-gravy
06-01-2010, 02:00 AM
I wonder how many people said the same about dead civil rights activists in Mississippi.

I always knew the man was evil. I guess there are one set of rules for Somali pirates and another set for Israeli pirates.

bjkeefe
06-01-2010, 02:02 AM
This paragraph was more confrontational than it should have been. Sorry for the excessively heated tone.

Why you're apologizing for speaking heatedly to Lyle is beyond comprehension.

That aside, I thought your points were solid, and not overwrought, independent of who you were addressing.

JonIrenicus
06-01-2010, 02:03 AM
Double Standard? How many on the left have any love for Hamas, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, or the House of Saud? We care about Israeli actions because the United States gives them money, military hardware, and diplomatic support while claiming that we do it because they're the only country in the region that shares our liberal values. If we're going to give them that support, then they'd damn well better share those liberal values.


Yes, double standard. Double standard because you view certain elements like Hamas as so far gone that your expectations of civil behavior and decency are LOWER compared to the standard you hold the Israelis to.

It is the kind of differential expectation one might have for their two children, one born healthy while the other is autistic.

If you think there is a good and solid reason to hold such a double standard, so be it, there ARE good reasons in some cases. But please be explicit and own up to it and maybe even explain why such a double standard is valid.

I do not see the international community throw a conniption fit every time a Palestinian group does something untoward. I do not see UN resolutions blanketed against countries so flippantly as they are against Israel. Is it merely the lack of statehood that stays the worlds for non Israeli aggression?

If we are to look upon and treat Palestinians as morally "less than" or as some sort of sub culture, not expected to meet the same standards of behavior, I want to know why. Or, do you deny any or all of this? Deny any differential expectations?

bjkeefe
06-01-2010, 02:04 AM
Yes, double standard. Double standard because you view certain elements like Hamas as so far gone that your expectations of civil behavior and decency are LOWER compared to the standard you hold the Israelis to.

I'm happy to acknowledge holding Israel (more specifically, the Israeli government) to a higher standard. Part of the price of being the good guys, and on our side.

And that's quite apart from the reality that they are, effectively, the occupying power in a war zone.

Don Zeko
06-01-2010, 02:11 AM
Maybe there's a distinction to be drawn between a moral double standard, which is indefensible, and a practical double standard, which might be hard to avoid. I don't see what condemnation from the UN or American public opinion can possibly do to Hamas that would make them less intransigent, where that kind of condemnation does have a chance of influencing Israeli behavior. I think there's also more of an obligation to criticize Israeli behavior than its adversaries because of the US's close relationship with Israeli.

Jyminee
06-01-2010, 03:33 AM
Lyle, you seem pretty gleeful in this thread, and I'm not sure why.

Perhaps its because you support Israel and think that the footage showing the soldiers being attacked proves that Israel was in the right and "won" this confrontation. In this I think you are sorely mistaken. This analysis from the Stratfor website (http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20100531_flotillas_and_wars_public_opinion) makes a very compelling case that Israel is coming out the very strong loser in this--it's a huge propaganda win for Hamas. I urge everyone to read it. As an Israel supporter myself--I have many relatives who live there--it is sad to see the country let itself walk into this trap. What a decline from the nation that launched the Entebbe raid.

But perhaps you are so happy because you don't like Muslims and enjoy public instances of Muslims Behaving Badly. In that case, you are simply a bigot.

So, Lyle, which is it?

Wonderment
06-01-2010, 04:13 AM
Perhaps its because you support Israel and think that the footage showing the soldiers being attacked proves that Israel was in the right and "won" this confrontation. In this I think you are sorely mistaken. This analysis from the Stratfor website makes a very compelling case that Israel is coming out the very strong loser in this--it's a huge propaganda win for Hamas.

Lyle may also be gleeful because it's a lose-lose situation for President Obama.

If Obama does the right thing and joins the rest of the civilized world in condemning Israel, the right wing in the US and AIPAC will crucify him.

If he does not (and he won't), he loses tremendous credibility in the Arab-Muslim world, squandering all his political capital on Netanyahu and his blatantly racist Defense Minister Lieberman. (Having already bet on the pathetic Karzai in Afghanistan, can Obama really afford to double down on the murderous Likudniks?)

rfrobison
06-01-2010, 05:08 AM
Not to pick nits in light of this latest tragedy/massacre/blunder/outrage/legitimate act of self defense/INSERT FAVORITE TERM HERE...

but I think you are referring to Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman. Ehud Barak is defense minister.

bjkeefe
06-01-2010, 05:16 AM
TBogg's take (http://tbogg.firedoglake.com/2010/05/31/israels-act-like-a-pirate-day-goes-predictably-awry/).

TBogg's take (http://tbogg.firedoglake.com/2010/05/31/idf-has-a-blog-meh-too-jewish-didnt-read/), part deux. You know who else ...?

AemJeff
06-01-2010, 11:22 AM
Lyle, you seem pretty gleeful in this thread, and I'm not sure why.

Perhaps its because you support Israel and think that the footage showing the soldiers being attacked proves that Israel was in the right and "won" this confrontation. In this I think you are sorely mistaken. This analysis from the Stratfor website (http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20100531_flotillas_and_wars_public_opinion) makes a very compelling case that Israel is coming out the very strong loser in this--it's a huge propaganda win for Hamas. I urge everyone to read it. As an Israel supporter myself--I have many relatives who live there--it is sad to see the country let itself walk into this trap. What a decline from the nation that launched the Entebbe raid.

But perhaps you are so happy because you don't like Muslims and enjoy public instances of Muslims Behaving Badly. In that case, you are simply a bigot.

So, Lyle, which is it?

You've chosen the wrong semiotic domain for the frame of this question, I think. Lyle is happy because people are treating his words as if they aren't simply strung together for effect. (Not "Lial" I think - more like "LYLIZA." ? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA)

Lyle
06-01-2010, 12:22 PM
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Law/Legal+Issues+and+Rulings/Gaza_flotilla_maritime_blockade_Gaza-Legal_background_31-May-2010.htm

1. A maritime blockade is in effect off the coast of Gaza. Such blockade has been imposed, as Israel is currently in a state of armed conflict with the Hamas regime that controls Gaza, which has repeatedly bombed civilian targets in Israel with weapons that have been smuggled into Gaza via the sea.

2. Maritime blockades are a legitimate and recognized measure under international law that may be implemented as part of an armed conflict at sea.

3. A blockade may be imposed at sea, including in international waters, so long as it does not bar access to the ports and coasts of neutral states.

4. The naval manuals of several western countries, including the US and England recognize the maritime blockade as an effective naval measure and set forth the various criteria that make a blockade valid, including the requirement of give due notice of the existence of the blockade.

5. In this vein, it should be noted that Israel publicized the existence of the blockade and the precise coordinates of such by means of the accepted international professional maritime channels. Israel also provided appropriate notification to the affected governments and to the organizers of the Gaza protest flotilla. Moreover, in real time, the ships participating in the protest flotilla were warned repeatedly that a maritime blockade is in effect.

6. Here, it should be noted that under customary law, knowledge of the blockade may be presumed once a blockade has been declared and appropriate notification has been granted, as above.

7. Under international maritime law, when a maritime blockade is in effect, no boats can enter the blockaded area. That includes both civilian and enemy vessels.

8. A state may take action to enforce a blockade. Any vessel that violates or attempts to violate a maritime blockade may be captured or even attacked under international law. The US Commander's Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations sets forth that a vessel is considered to be in attempt to breach a blockade from the time the vessel leaves its port with the intention of evading the blockade.

9. Here we should note that the protesters indicated their clear intention to violate the blockade by means of written and oral statements. Moreover, the route of these vessels indicated their clear intention to violate the blockade in violation of international law.

10. Given the protesters explicit intention to violate the naval blockade, Israel exercised its right under international law to enforce the blockade. It should be noted that prior to undertaking enforcement measures, explicit warnings were relayed directly to the captains of the vessels, expressing Israel's intent to exercise its right to enforce the blockade.

11. Israel had attempted to take control of the vessels participating in the flotilla by peaceful means and in an orderly fashion in order to enforce the blockade. Given the large number of vessels participating in the flotilla, an operational decision was made to undertake measures to enforce the blockade a certain distance from the area of the blockade.

12. Israeli personnel attempting to enforce the blockade were met with violence by the protesters and acted in self defense to fend off such attacks.

Lyle
06-01-2010, 12:27 PM
Hate Muslims? Haha... I don't hate Muslims. Ask me my position on the mosque near the World Trade Center site.

No... I'm not really gleeful about what has happened. I just want the community to see how peaceful and law abiding the "peace activists" on that ship are. That's all.

Guess, by your own logic I could call you an anti-semite if you don't understand why Israel responded the way they responded. That would be ridiculous though, right?

Lyle
06-01-2010, 12:28 PM
It's not about Obama either... haha. This has got nothing to do with him anyway. Keep it stupid Wonderment, keep it stupid.

nikkibong
06-01-2010, 12:37 PM
Keep it stupid

pretty much.

bjkeefe
06-01-2010, 01:49 PM
No. I would have used ellipses since what you quoted is not a full sentence.

Wonderment
06-01-2010, 02:38 PM
but I think you are referring to Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman. Ehud Barak is defense minister.

Correct. My bad.

JonIrenicus
06-01-2010, 03:30 PM
I'm happy to acknowledge holding Israel (more specifically, the Israeli government) to a higher standard. Part of the price of being the good guys, and on our side.

And that's quite apart from the reality that they are, effectively, the occupying power in a war zone.



Good, baby steps, an acknowledgment has a different standard compared to their neighbors.

Here is the problem. I think it is counter productive to give people a pass or go easier on them in terms of moral condemnation of actions. I want equality of judgment in that arena, no matter who is being judged.


If you have swarms of protesters chanting death to [fill in the blank], people need to stop giving that backwards rhetoric a pass, like oh, its just that they are from another culture....

What are they children? sub human beings? I don't WANT people graded on a curve on their rhetoric and their beliefs. And YES, that means some of the more backwards peoples and beliefs will get stronger rebuke, and that is a GOOD thing.


The world gives backwards beliefs and practices a pass, expects less, and wonders why they get less.

Take a more extreme case of a double standard. N. Korea. They SUNK a S. Korean ship, MURDERED an entire vessel of people in cold blood.

If we divided the world outrage over that incident by the outrage over this incident with Israel raiding a pro Hamas support ship and the subsequent killings, the number would be damn near ZERO.


There are cases where we do not care about bad behavior from people or groups, when we think they are a lost cause, garbage, throw away refuse that will not perform and act better than they have.

Do we expect the retarded kid to score well on his math exams? Write a coherent essay?

Is that what non western peoples are? what radicalized muslim people are?


You see, I don't want to treat those people as if they are retarded children, not fit to be judged by similar standards. I want them to get their act together because they need to MORE than other people that are less backwards. And that project of bringing them online is undermined by giving them a pass on their behavior and rhetoric which is often infinitely WORSE than anything we or Israel does.

Where is the call to arms when Hamas assassinates fellow Palestinians for having different views? I swear to you, the moral stupidity is so blinding it burns my eyes. People say we ought to be held to a higher standard because better is expected of us, I say some others are in FAR greater need of being held to any standards at all as it would do them infinitely more good.

JonIrenicus
06-01-2010, 03:39 PM
That's quite an accusation. Maybe you should back it up with something more compelling than your "cynicism."

An accusation you agree with, but you are too liberal to admit it openly. If you had any faith in those people and their cause you would CARE about their bad behaviors, you do not care, you do not care because by comparison to Israel you treat them as a lost cause to basic decency.

But you can never say that, that would not be the liberal thing to do. Better the silent unspoken bigotry of a double ethical standard. You are not alone.

bjkeefe
06-01-2010, 04:30 PM
Shorter JonIrenicus (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=163473#post163473):

Rather than provide any evidence or reasoning as you request, I will instead make a sweeping pronouncement about all liberals, since it has been proven by Political Science that they all think exactly alike; i.e, with bigotry.

Next question?

bjkeefe
06-01-2010, 04:34 PM
Shorter JonIrenicus (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=163472#post163472):

I'm in a room full of straw men, and I'm carrying a flamethrower.

Also, the Palestinians are in a situation that makes them just like the North Koreans, and the Baby Trigus will never amount to anything.

JonIrenicus
06-01-2010, 05:13 PM
Shorter JonIrenicus (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=163473#post163473):

Not everything people believe is translated to what they say.

My assertion about the some of the activists preferring a conflict, and even deaths, is not crazy talk. What do you think the point of the flotillas was? Supplies? Why not allow it to be boarded peacefully without incident and assaults? You ascribe golden motivations to the "activists" while the world assumes mountains of fel intent from Israel, and you Dare complain when such unfair assumptions are aimed at liberals who suck in those claims without protest.


You don't like it? Then start applying a uniform standard yourself.

JonIrenicus
06-01-2010, 05:19 PM
Shorter JonIrenicus (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=163472#post163472):

Topic shift. This incident was a bad move for Israel, that idea was accepted and I moved on from it, and shifted to the double standard issue, and why I think it poisons societies and media and reform.

And your issue with all of that? no comment, I guess you have nothing to say on the issue beyond, I expect better from Israel, and less from Palestinians, and that is REASONABLE.

Uh, you know, actually no, I don't think it's reasonable. I am tired of these differential standards of right and wrong, I am tired of seeing the world grade so many different groups on a curve.

bjkeefe
06-01-2010, 05:28 PM
You ascribe golden motivations to the "activists" ...

Nowhere have I come close to doing that.

Until you are able to deal with commenters as individuals, instead of seeing every last person who doesn't share your worldview as just another instance of some imaginary LiberalBorg, I will not bother to engage with you past the point of mockery. It's just not worth the effort.

bjkeefe
06-01-2010, 05:36 PM
Topic shift. This incident was a bad move for Israel, that idea was accepted and I moved on from it, and shifted to the double standard issue, and why I think it poisons societies and media and reform.

And your issue with all of that? no comment, I guess you have nothing to say on the issue beyond, I expect better from Israel, and less from Palestinians, and that is REASONABLE.

Uh, you know, actually no, I don't think it's reasonable. I am tired of these differential standards of right and wrong, I am tired of seeing the world grade so many different groups on a curve.

I should just say "same answer (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=163496#post163496)," but I'll give this one a brief shot.

Despite your attempt to be clever in casting this as "grading on the curve," as though the situation of an oppressed people were exactly the same thing as different demographic groups or skill levels among American school kids, it's really not that simple.

Note carefully that when I say oppressed, I refer both to the Israeli government and the Palestinians' own leadership.

It is glib and unrealistic to expect people who haven't the same advantages and opportunities to behave as well as you would like. You can wish for it, but making unreasonable demands is not going to help, and it's probably just going to make matters worse.

Finally, I do not claim that my view that the good guys/my side should behave better is entirely "REASONABLE." It is partly idealistic, and I don't see anything wrong with that. Better to hold myself and my friends to a higher standard than to demand it only of others. If we claim that we are better, than we should act like it.

Wonderment
06-01-2010, 07:51 PM
My assertion about the some of the activists preferring a conflict, and even deaths, is not crazy talk.

Depends how you define crazy. Is it crazy to think Obama was born in Kenya? Is it crazy to think Mexicans want to reconquer the Southwest?

Such ideas are not the kind of crazy that gets you institutionalized or even sent to a therapist, but they are rather dramatically paranoic and irrational.

I can assure you that the people who volunteered to deliver humanitarian goods to Gaza did not want to die that night. They didn't figure getting murdered by Israeli soldiers would be good for the cause, as you've insultingly suggested. That's just nonsense.

How is it like Obama and the Reconquista? It's nonsense based on underlying racial/ethnic stereotypes. In your case, it's the idea that all Muslims are potential suicide cult bombers.

bjkeefe
06-01-2010, 08:24 PM
TBogg's take (http://tbogg.firedoglake.com/2010/05/31/idf-has-a-blog-meh-too-jewish-didnt-read/), part deux. You know who else ...?

More shortness and sweetness, this time from Roy Edroso (http://alicublog.blogspot.com/2010/06/it-wont-float.html).

JonIrenicus
06-01-2010, 08:49 PM
Depends how you define crazy. Is it crazy to think Obama was born in Kenya? Is it crazy to think Mexicans want to reconquer the Southwest?

Such ideas are not the kind of crazy that gets you institutionalized or even sent to a therapist, but they are rather dramatically paranoic and irrational.

I can assure you that the people who volunteered to deliver humanitarian goods to Gaza did not want to die that night. They didn't figure getting murdered by Israeli soldiers would be good for the cause, as you've insultingly suggested. That's just nonsense.

How is it like Obama and the Reconquista? It's nonsense based on underlying racial/ethnic stereotypes. In your case, it's the idea that all Muslims are potential suicide cult bombers.


1st, go look up the definition of murder, there was none. If no one wanted harm to come to them, then none of them would have attacked the soldiers with clubs, or stabbed them.

But then I suppose in wonderments/lefts world view, stabbings if done against Israelis by Palestinians or Hamas supporters does not count as aggression.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqhRs-eE4K4


What should it be called? Just protest? Strange is it not, that 5 of the six ships in the flotilla did not have such incidents occur, so what happened on that one ship? The idf soldiers did not like the way they looked?

What is the proper response of soldiers being attacked? I suppose the proper response would have been to allow themselves be bludgeoned to death, or have their throats slit.

Where is that pacifist outrage at the assaults on the idf soldiers trying to enforce the blockade? Oh right, violence is only intolerable when performed by Israel, or the US. I forgot. Or self defense, where defense involves trying to breach a blockade and potentially smuggle god knows what to Hamas.

bjkeefe
06-01-2010, 09:54 PM
More shortness and sweetness, this time from Roy Edroso (http://alicublog.blogspot.com/2010/06/it-wont-float.html).

Some longer things:

• Glenn Greenwald arguing with Eliot Spitzer (http://instaputz.blogspot.com/2010/06/why-does-glenn-greenwald-hate-jews.html) (video, about six minutes long).

• John Cole links to two pieces by Daniel Larison (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/06/01/larisons-right/), and adds comments to one of them. And then he does a little wingnut-wrap-up: yep, it's all Obama's fault!!!1! (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/06/01/speaking-of-hacks/)

Lyle
06-01-2010, 10:35 PM
An argument? :)

Lyle
06-01-2010, 10:44 PM
You can criticize other countries all you want to... but if you going to call your argument one of defending "American liberal values", you can't just argue whatever personal values you yourself hold. If you put American before it, you got to take what America gives you and America isn't really different from Israel. Fuck, we're not even just dealing with people on our borders, we're occupying two different countries thousands of miles away from our shore... and we're killing people there.

Your President, the guy I'm assuming you voted for, is leading these operations and doing so in your name, and yet you're going to lecture me, them, whomever about how American values mean we have to support these "peace activists", there buddies in Iran, and the KKK-Palestinians of Hamas? Say what? If we do it, Israel can do it... and we're doing the exact same thing or have done the exact same thing before... and never in a true violation of any law.

And don't ever fucking compare GAZA and the KKK-Palestinians of Hamas to Japanese-Americans who were put into camps (legally). Japanese-Americans intifada'd nothing, suicide bombed nobody, threw none of their own Japanese-Americans off our buildings, hung them, or shot them in the head. Show some respect for history dude. Stop making woefully ignorant comparisons. It ain't the same. Learn your history boy!

Lyle
06-01-2010, 11:01 PM
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2010/06/official-us-will-stand-with-israel.html#tp

I’m told there won’t be any daylight between the US and Israel in the aftermath of the incident on the flotilla yesterday, which resulted in the deaths of 10 activists.

Regardless of the details of the flotilla incident, sources say President Obama is focused on what he sees as the longer term issue here: a successful Mideast peace process.

“The president has always said that it will be much easier for Israel to make peace if it feels secure,” a senior administration official tells ABC News.

The suggestion is that US condemnation of Israel would further isolate that country, and make further peace negotiations between the Israelis and Palestinians even more difficult.

The senior administration official says that President Obama spoke to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu three times on Monday. Mr. Obama pushed the notion that last night – as the United Nations Security Council met to issue a statement about the incident – was the moment when the US had maximum leverage, that the longer the statement was being debated the worse it would ultimately be for Israel.

Ultimately, as the statement was negotiated over night, the US succeeded in making it more neutral where other nations wanted it to criticize and condemn Israel.

The statement expresses that the "Security Council deeply regrets the loss of life and injuries resulting form the use of force during the Israeli military operation in international waters against the convoy sailing to Gaza,” but more generally condemns "those acts which resulted in the loss” of lives – leaving matters of blame vague.

The US also pushed for language conveying that it’s acceptable for the Israelis to conduct their own investigation into the matter as long as the investigation is “prompt, impartial, credible and transparent.” Other countries were pushing for an independent investigation, perhaps by the UN itself.

Not surprising and some good news.

Don Zeko
06-01-2010, 11:29 PM
And don't ever fucking compare GAZA and the KKK-Palestinians of Hamas to Japanese-Americans who were put into camps (legally). Japanese-Americans intifada'd nothing, suicide bombed nobody, threw none of their own Japanese-Americans off our buildings, hung them, or shot them in the head. Show some respect for history dude. Stop making woefully ignorant comparisons. It ain't the same. Learn your history boy!

Three things. #1: I didn't compare interned Japanese-Americans to Hamas, or even to Palestinians more broadly. I cited interned Japanese-Americans as an example in an abstract argument against the nonsensical moral principle you appeared to be putting forward. Just because they appear in the same paragraph doesn't mean I'm saying the situations are analogous.

#2: Learn the other half of your history, "boy." It's not like the intifada happened because the Palestinians woke up with a bad hangover and decided to be assholes to the Israelis; they're living under a military occupation. There's plenty of blood for everybody's hands over there.

#3: Yes, collective punishment is fun! I mean it must be true that every single Gazan that is living in poverty, unable to get adequate food, receive decent medical care, or even rebuild his bombed-out home was trying to kill Israelis before the embargo, and will try again if it is lifted, right?

Lyle
06-01-2010, 11:50 PM
What people in Gaza are starving or lack decent medical care? Food and medical supplies are traded in daily. If Palestinians aren't affluent cause they don't know what to do with themselves, that's their problem. They ain't starving for lack of food or dying for lack of medicine. That's nonsense.

... and Hamas IS the government of Gaza. Collective punishment my ass.

... and don't bring up nonsensical historical comparisons when you don't want them to be compared. You bring up Japanese-Americans during WWII and Palestinians stuck in limbo due to past wars and their own do nothingness... I'm going to call you out. It screams ignorance.

Lyle
06-01-2010, 11:53 PM
Haha... (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/02/world/middleeast/02activists.html?hp)

On Tuesday in a bustling neighborhood in Istanbul, the Turkish organization was celebrating a strange success. “We became famous,” said Omar Faruk, a board member of the group, Insani Yardim Vakfi, known by its Turkish initials, I.H.H. “We are very thankful to the Israeli authorities.”

Woot. They're celebrating their own peoples' deaths. "A strange success". Haha.

Don Zeko
06-02-2010, 12:52 AM
What people in Gaza are starving or lack decent medical care? Food and medical supplies are traded in daily. If Palestinians aren't affluent cause they don't know what to do with themselves, that's their problem. They ain't starving for lack of food or dying for lack of medicine. That's nonsense.

So says the IDF. Would you want to relocate there?

... and Hamas IS the government of Gaza. Collective punishment my ass.

Dude, causing indiscriminate suffering in the civilian population because of the actions of their government = a form of collective punishment.

... and don't bring up nonsensical historical comparisons when you don't want them to be compared. You bring up Japanese-Americans during WWII and Palestinians stuck in limbo due to past wars and their own do nothingness... I'm going to call you out. It screams ignorance.

Jeebus. I felt that your argument was vulnerable to a reductio ad absurdem, so I made one. That is not the same as saying that interned Japanese-Americans are at all similar to Gazans. In fact, I compared them to hypothetical interned Iranian Christians. You would know this if you'd taken the time to actually read my post, rather than mining it for things that might be construed as false equivalence by someone with poor reading comprehension skills.

Whatfur
06-02-2010, 07:39 AM
Nothing new. (http://townhall.com/columnists/CalThomas/2010/06/02/re-run)

bjkeefe
06-02-2010, 07:24 PM
Nothing new. (http://townhall.com/columnists/CalThomas/2010/06/02/re-run)

What, you mean your linking to a columnist on Clownhall?

Yep. Nothing new.

popcorn_karate
06-02-2010, 07:43 PM
Do you denounce the peace activists' violence at all? Do you have any comment about that?

people boarding a ship in international waters (basically pirates) should expect to be shot. end of story.

Whatfur
06-02-2010, 09:00 PM
people boarding a ship in international waters (basically pirates) should expect to be shot. end of story.

Do you know why all pirate jokes are funny? ...because they Arrrrre

And your's is ridiculous.

Whatfur
06-02-2010, 09:08 PM
Nothing new. (http://townhall.com/columnists/CalThomas/2010/06/02/re-run)

Nothing New Republic? (http://www.tnr.com/blog/the-spine/75249/the-great-flotilla-debate-the-facts-are-israels-side)

Lyle
06-02-2010, 10:44 PM
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0610/Biden_solidifies_defense_of_Israel_Whats_the_big_d eal_here.html?showall

"[The Israelis have] said, 'Here you go. You're in the Mediterranean. This ship — if you divert slightly north you can unload it and we'll get the stuff into Gaza.' So what's the big deal here? What's the big deal of insisting it go straight to Gaza? Well, it's legitimate for Israel to say, 'I don't know what's on that ship. These guys are dropping eight — 3,000 rockets on my people,'" Biden said.

Awesome. Yay Team Obama.

grits-n-gravy
06-02-2010, 11:05 PM
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0610/Biden_solidifies_defense_of_Israel_Whats_the_big_d eal_here.html?showall

Awesome. Yay Team Obama.


Well, what do you expect from American politicians brought and paid for by Israel. Team Obama has no credibility. But I'll tell who does have more credibility in their pinky fingers than the entire Obama Administration:

"Joining the global condemnations, the Elders Group of past and present world leaders, including former South African president Nelson Mandela and Archbishop Desmond Tutu, on Monday condemned as "completely inexcusable" the deadly Israeli attack."

http://www.antara.co.id/en/news/1275461182/attack-on-freedom-flotilla-pits-israel-against-world-community

bjkeefe
06-03-2010, 12:38 AM
... townhall.com/columnists/CalThomas/ ...

For more on the "nothing new" idea, see the review of another Cal Thomas piece, from The Erstwhile Conservative (http://duanegraham.wordpress.com/2010/06/02/why-republicans-need-new-ideas/).

bjkeefe
06-03-2010, 12:42 AM
Nothing New Republic? (http://www.tnr.com/blog/the-spine/75249/the-great-flotilla-debate-the-facts-are-israels-side)

Anyone here besides 'fur, a recent arrival from the planet Neptune, or a baby born five seconds ago, who is surprised that EvenTheLiberalNewRepublic™ (i.e., most especially, its Arab-Muslin-hating "editor" Marty Peretz) thinks Israel is in the right on this situation?

bjkeefe
06-03-2010, 12:45 AM
Emph. added:

And your's is ridiculous.

I do like preserving these.

listener
06-03-2010, 03:27 AM
Emph. added:



And your's is ridiculous.

I do like preserving these.

Okay, you may claim that one, but King Solomon's Mine's.

bjkeefe
06-03-2010, 04:20 AM
Okay, you may claim that one, but King Solomon's Mine's.

Very well played.

bjkeefe
06-03-2010, 04:28 AM
An accusation you agree with, but you are too liberal to admit it openly. [...]

But you can never say that, that would not be the liberal thing to do. [...]

Thought that had a somewhat familiar ring (http://mediamatters.org/blog/201003100028).

There are three things that most liberals haven’t said and can’t admit to the public or to themselves: [...]
-- Rich Lowry (http://article.nationalreview.com/427452/three-things-liberals-cant-admit/rich-lowry)

Hive mind? Faxed talking points? EPISTEMIC CLOSURE?

Nothing to see here. Move along.

bjkeefe
06-03-2010, 05:08 AM
TBogg's take (http://tbogg.firedoglake.com/2010/05/31/idf-has-a-blog-meh-too-jewish-didnt-read/), part deux. You know who else ...?

Yes, you want more (http://tbogg.firedoglake.com/2010/06/02/he-hit-me-and-it-felt-like-a-kiss/).

Lyle
06-03-2010, 09:01 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABjE_7uwA0I&feature=player_embedded#!

Lyle
06-03-2010, 09:06 PM
As Joe B said, "No big deal"... and lawful.

Whatfur
06-03-2010, 11:29 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABjE_7uwA0I&feature=player_embedded#!

Such beautiful people.

bjkeefe
06-04-2010, 12:40 AM
Such beautiful people.

If it had been one Palestinian kid and a crowd of Israeli kids, right now you and Lyle would be howling about how he was trying to incite violence.

AemJeff
06-04-2010, 12:52 AM
If it had been one Palestinian kid and a crowd of Israeli kids, right now you and Lyle would be howling about how he was trying to incite violence.

Imagine if this happened at Waco, or Ruby Ridge, instead of on a ship full of hippies and Palestinian sympathizers.

Lyle
06-04-2010, 12:56 AM
Haha... you wish. Way to make up a story. Haha.

Lyle
06-04-2010, 12:57 AM
Hmm... you seem to not be making a point. Come again?

bjkeefe
06-04-2010, 12:58 AM
Imagine if this happened at Waco, or Ruby Ridge, instead of on a ship full of hippies and Palestinian sympathizers.

Also, if instead of Palestinian sympathizers, that crowd had been made up of teabaggers, right now 'fur would be furiously typing, "THat video prove's the crowd was at least 300,000!!!1!"

Lyle
06-04-2010, 12:59 AM
What are you talking about?

bjkeefe
06-04-2010, 12:59 AM
Haha... ... Haha.

No one could have predicted that "response."

bjkeefe
06-04-2010, 01:00 AM
What are you talking about?

Nice try, dB.

Lyle
06-04-2010, 01:01 AM
No seriously, what the heck are you talking about?

Lyle
06-04-2010, 01:03 AM
... but if the police hadn't of been there. Who knows?

http://www.ellabakercenter.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/sit-in.jpg

Progressives and friends, you're the white people in the picture if you don't get it. :)

Lyle
06-04-2010, 01:21 AM
So says the IDF? Really, people are starving in Gaza? I don't think so bud.

Suicide bombings and rocket attacks... indiscriminate suffering, collective punishment, or both?

listener
06-04-2010, 01:39 AM
No one could have predicted that "response."

But Brendan... you promised!

;)

bjkeefe
06-04-2010, 02:01 AM
No seriously, what the heck are you talking about?

. (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=163923#post163923)

Whatfur
06-04-2010, 09:04 AM
Has this made its way here yet???? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg)

nikkibong
06-04-2010, 11:38 AM
with friends like lyle and whatfur, what do they need enemies for?

Whatfur
06-04-2010, 12:05 PM
with friends like lyle and whatfur, what do they need enemies for?

Come on bong bong...
I'm just throwing questions out there that don't seem to be getting answered. Unlike Wonder Boy, I am unable to convict them based on their past...trumped up past or otherwise. I am more than willing to be wrong here. I don't have a problem with the blockade. I don't have a problem with them thwarting an attempt at punching through it by, after a week of warnings, dropping on the ships and securing them. I don't have a problem with their response to getting clubbed and knifed by an angry mob.

Do you?

I have a problem with IHH members being regarded as "peace activists". I have a problem all the errant and misleading propaganda and, until proven otherwise, misrepresentations about where and why this turned ugly.

Whatfur
06-04-2010, 07:08 PM
with friends like lyle and whatfur, what do they need enemies for?

Wow...and Susan Estrich (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/06/04/the_trouble_with_confronting_terrorists_105857.htm l).

She gets it right about 1 out of 100 times. She is far easier to read than listen to.

bjkeefe
06-04-2010, 07:20 PM
I am more than willing to be wrong here.

Well, obviously.

Being willing to admit it, of course, probably requires an alternate universe.

Lyle
06-04-2010, 07:57 PM
I don't like the song actually. I get it and like to be silly myself, but I'm not down with that song even though I agree with what they're saying. Not my style or kind of silly, I guess.

Lyle
06-04-2010, 08:01 PM
You with the Klan on this one nikkibong? They dislike Israel too. :)

Whatfur
06-05-2010, 04:14 PM
You with the Klan on this one nikkibong? They dislike Israel too. :)

He is certainly not with the club called Journalists or those who look past the noise to see whats really going on.

bjkeefe
06-05-2010, 04:22 PM
He is certainly not with the club called Journalists or those who look past the noise to see whats really going on.

As with most wingnuts, if you're not reporting the news exactly the way they want it served up, you must be lying, clueless, in the pocket of Soros, or whatever.

Don't let old 'fur get you down, nikki. Call 'em as you see 'em. And I say that as someone who disagrees quite strongly with some of your views, as you know.

Whatfur
06-05-2010, 04:39 PM
As with most wingnuts, if you're not reporting the news exactly the way they want it served up, you must be lying, clueless, in the pocket of Soros, or whatever.

Don't let old 'fur get you down, nikki. Call 'em as you see 'em. And I say that as someone who disagrees quite strongly with some of your views, as you know.

Oh Yes!! Come join the OH'Queef "Sounds like a fart but its not" diplomacy tour.

bjkeefe
06-05-2010, 04:43 PM
Oh Yes!! Come join the OH'Queef "Sounds like a fart but its not" diplomacy tour.

Noted for the record.

Whatfur
06-05-2010, 04:53 PM
Noted for the record.

Fur wins another virtual 100K from wiff. Thanks for noting. Pawned. Ha!

bjkeefe
06-05-2010, 05:17 PM
Shorter 'fur (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=164170#post164170):

"Haha (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/member.php?u=5122)."

bjkeefe
06-07-2010, 04:03 AM
You with the Klan on this one nikkibong? They dislike Israel too. :)

Somehow, it feels quite appropriate to attach the following to the above.

The latest wrap-up from Roy Edroso, "Rightbloggers Get Their God On by Defending Israel's Flotilla-Killas (Also: You Anti-Semite!)," is now available.

Introduction here (http://alicublog.blogspot.com/2010/06/new-voice-column-up-about-flotilla.html), full column here (http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2010/06/rightbloggers_g_1.php).

Bonus: the intro has an update, which proposes a new title for RaciSt McCain. (Yeah, that (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=164391#post164391) guy.)

bjkeefe
06-07-2010, 08:55 PM
Somehow, it feels quite appropriate to attach the following to the above.

The latest wrap-up from Roy Edroso, "Rightbloggers Get Their God On by Defending Israel's Flotilla-Killas (Also: You Anti-Semite!)," is now available.

Introduction here (http://alicublog.blogspot.com/2010/06/new-voice-column-up-about-flotilla.html), full column here (http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2010/06/rightbloggers_g_1.php).

Bonus: the intro has an update, which proposes a new title for RaciSt McCain. (Yeah, that (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=164391#post164391) guy.)

Comment (http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2010/06/rightbloggers_g_1.php#comment-6748010) left under the above column, by G:

I am always amused that the right, who now regularly engage in "how dare you call me a racist (for being racist)- why that's the worst thing you can say about someone!" rants, immediately damn anything other than full-bore support for every single thing Israel does as "anti-Semitic."

bjkeefe
06-07-2010, 10:52 PM
You with the Klan on this one nikkibong? They dislike Israel too. :)

Here is something else, on the same theme as earlier (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=164504#post164504), from Thoreau (http://highclearing.com/index.php/archives/2010/06/07/11226):

You mean they aren’t all the same?

Two Christian dudes from California, upon hearing of plans to build a mosque near the site of the WTC, got so upset that they got on a plane to fly to NYC and protest along with the rest of the angry mob. However, there was one problem: These Christian dudes just happen to be Egyptians who speak Arabic. (http://www.northjersey.com/news/opinions/kelly/95748769_On_this_ground__zero_tolerance.html?page= all) That didn’t go over so well with the angry mob.

At one point, a portion of the crowd menacingly surrounded two Egyptian men who were speaking Arabic and were thought to be Muslims.

“Go home,” several shouted from the crowd.

“Get out,” others shouted.

In fact, the two men – Joseph Nassralla and Karam El Masry — were not Muslims at all. They turned out to be Egyptian Coptic Christians who work for a California-based Christian satellite TV station called “The Way.” Both said they had come to protest the mosque.

“I’m a Christian,” Nassralla shouted to the crowd, his eyes bulging and beads of sweat rolling down his face.

But it was no use. The protesters had become so angry at what they thought were Muslims that New York City police officers had to rush in and pull Nassralla and El Masry to safety.

“I flew nine hours in an airplane to come here,” a frustrated Nassralla said afterward.

I know that the other protesters probably won’t learn anything about racial tolerance from this incident, but let’s hope that maybe the two Egyptian guys learn something about trying to join angry mobs. I suspect that if Jesus came to NYC He’d be less upset about the mosque (after all, the Muslims also revere him as a prophet) and more upset about the angry mob, not to mention all the money-lenders engaging in shenanigans a few blocks away.

Lyle
06-08-2010, 02:39 AM
What's the relevancy of this? The Klan isn't critical of Israel, what?

bjkeefe
06-08-2010, 03:01 AM
What's the relevancy of this? The Klan isn't critical of Israel, what?

. (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=164154&highlight=lyle+blockade+ignorance+disingenuousness #post164154)

Lyle
06-08-2010, 10:27 PM
Maybe you should think about putting this story in the actual thread about the mosque near ground zero? Seems more relevant to that thread, don't you think?

bjkeefe
06-09-2010, 03:06 PM
Maybe you should think about putting this story in the actual thread about the mosque near ground zero? Seems more relevant to that thread, don't you think?

No. Unless you've attached your comment in the wrong place, I take you to be referring to this post (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=164410#post164410), which points people to Roy Edroso's report on rightblogger reaction to flotilla story, the main topic of this thread. (Perhaps switch to threaded view to see this, if you're not using that mode already.)

However, I encourage you to post a referral link to my post in the other thread, if you think it also has some relevance there.

Lyle
06-10-2010, 09:13 PM
Dude your just stupid... this post has no business being posted in this thread, or under this particular string of posts. Go put that shit where it belongs.

bjkeefe
06-11-2010, 12:15 AM
Dude your just stupid...

I love things like this.

AemJeff
06-11-2010, 12:19 AM
I love things like this.

Thats cause your stupid.

bjkeefe
06-11-2010, 12:24 AM
Thats cause your stupid.

Hey! What business is this of your's?

AemJeff
06-11-2010, 12:32 AM
Hey! What business is this of your's?

Hey just cause Im of a different political stripe then you it dont mean I cant add to yours.