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AemJeff
03-21-2010, 10:48 PM
HCR Passes the House!

Ocean
03-21-2010, 10:48 PM
HCR Passes the House!

219!

claymisher
03-21-2010, 10:48 PM
219!

AemJeff
03-21-2010, 10:48 PM
219!

listener
03-21-2010, 10:49 PM
219!

Amen!

claymisher
03-21-2010, 10:51 PM
When's the Senate voting on reconciliation bill anyway?

bjkeefe
03-21-2010, 10:51 PM
A screen grab (http://img714.imageshack.us/i/bigvote.png/) worth preserving:

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/2018/bigvote.png

bjkeefe
03-21-2010, 10:55 PM
When's the Senate voting on reconciliation bill anyway?

So far, all I've heard is "soon."

Don Zeko
03-21-2010, 10:55 PM
I'm with John Spratt: big Kudos to Pelosi.

bjkeefe
03-21-2010, 11:00 PM
I'm with John Spratt: big Kudos to Pelosi.

And claymisher and me (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=155194#post155194).

claymisher
03-21-2010, 11:01 PM
Wow, Stupak sticking up for the Democrats. Go figure.

Ocean
03-21-2010, 11:02 PM
Wow, Stupak sticking up for the Democrats. Go figure.

Yes, wow!

listener
03-21-2010, 11:06 PM
Yes, wow!

Great political drama! I'm going to start production of tee shirts that say "I'm with Stupak"

AemJeff
03-21-2010, 11:09 PM
Great political drama! I'm going to start production of tee shirts that say "I'm with Stupak"

If anyone doesn't like the deal with Stupak (Jane Hamsher take note!), here's why it was critical.

btw 216! (nay) oops... 219!

Ocean
03-21-2010, 11:10 PM
Great political drama! I'm going to start production of tee shirts that say "I'm with Stupak"

Stupefaction!

listener
03-21-2010, 11:13 PM
well, so much for the motion to recommit

uncle ebeneezer
03-21-2010, 11:14 PM
Quoth the GOP: "We've been Stup'd!"

bjkeefe
03-21-2010, 11:14 PM
A screen grab (http://img714.imageshack.us/i/bigvote.png/) worth preserving:

Roll call details on this historic vote here (http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/111/house/2/165).

Ocean
03-21-2010, 11:15 PM
well, so much for the motion to recommit

It's the Repubs' vengeance against the American people who have to get up early tomorrow.

listener
03-21-2010, 11:17 PM
Roll call details on this historic vote here (http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/111/house/2/165).

Thanks. Interesting graphics on that map.

bjkeefe
03-21-2010, 11:22 PM
well, so much for the motion to recommit

And for the record (http://img441.imageshack.us/i/vote2recommit.png/):

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/4190/vote2recommit.png

listener
03-21-2010, 11:32 PM
Hey... anyone remember a few weeks ago when health reform was dead as a doornail?

Ocean
03-21-2010, 11:35 PM
Hey... anyone remember a few weeks ago when health reform was dead as a doornail?

I learned a long time ago not to pronounce anything dead unless it is. And this one is alive.

listener
03-21-2010, 11:37 PM
I learned a long time ago not to pronounce anything dead unless it is. And this one is alive.

Yup. And now we're up to 220.

And now for the crucial Iwo Jima vote...

Ocean
03-21-2010, 11:38 PM
Yup. And now we're up to 220.

We're such kids! :)

bjkeefe
03-21-2010, 11:42 PM
For the record (http://img221.imageshack.us/i/hcrpassage2d.png/), again (see also (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=155189#post155189), see also (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=155207#post155207)):

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9131/hcrpassage2d.png

listener
03-21-2010, 11:47 PM
We're such kids! :)

For sure... and why not be kids every now and again? It's been a long uphill slog. And in that spirit, I'm giving you a big electronic high five.

Ocean
03-21-2010, 11:49 PM
For sure... and why not be kids every now and again? It's been a long uphill slog. And in that spirit, I'm giving you a big electronic high five.

And I gladly reply: high five!

bjkeefe
03-21-2010, 11:50 PM
And I gladly reply: high five!

Ten more from me.

Ocean
03-21-2010, 11:51 PM
Ten more from me.

Alright!

AemJeff
03-21-2010, 11:54 PM
For sure... and why not be kids every now and again? It's been a long uphill slog. And in that spirit, I'm giving you a big electronic high five.

It has been a long uphill slog. And I doubt we're done climbing. But I'm a firm proponent of Schadenfreude (http://www.redstate.com/erick/2010/03/21/happy-warriors-still/) (e.g., but especially), and now is just the moment for a bit of that.

uncle ebeneezer
03-22-2010, 12:02 AM
Hear! Hear! Hats off to everyone who called reps, wrote letters, provided links, clarified the facts, disabused the lies and generally kept the discussion moving in the face of every attempt to stop this important first step for a long-needed attempt to fix a major issue for our country. "We didn't fear our future, we shaped it." --BHO

We've not crossed the finish line yet, but this is a huge hurdle and we all deserve a moment of (brief) celebration.

listener
03-22-2010, 12:03 AM
msnbc.com is broadcasting Pelosi's victory lap... i mean remarks...

Ocean
03-22-2010, 12:07 AM
Hear! Hear! Hats off to everyone who called reps, wrote letters, provided links, clarified the facts, disabused the lies and generally kept the discussion moving in the face of every attempt to stop this important first step for a long-needed attempt to fix a major issue for our country. "We didn't fear our future, we shaped it." --BHO

We've not crossed the finish line yet, but this is a huge hurdle and we all deserve a moment of (brief) celebration.

Cheers!

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 12:11 AM
msnbc.com is broadcasting Pelosi's victory lap... i mean remarks...

You're goddam right it's a victory lap, and it's well-deserved.

Also, it is time for the Dems to start taking pride in this accomplishment. It's less than eight months till Election Day, don't forget.

listener
03-22-2010, 12:12 AM
You're goddam right it's a victory lap, and it's well-deserved.

Also, it is time for the Dems to start taking pride in this accomplishment. It's less than eight months till Election Day, don't forget.

No doubt.

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 12:16 AM
It has been a long uphill slog. And I doubt we're done climbing. But I'm a firm proponent of Schadenfreude (http://www.redstate.com/erick/2010/03/21/happy-warriors-still/) (e.g., but especially), and now is just the moment for a bit of that.

LOL! That's the best GHEMRotRSTF post since he declared victory (http://bjkeefe.blogspot.com/2009/11/move-over-mark-halperin.html) right after Democrat Bill Owens crushed teabagger darling Doug Hoffman in NY-23.

listener
03-22-2010, 12:17 AM
The President (http://www.flickr.com/photos/whitehouse/4453307340/sizes/l/) reacts to the vote (photo).

uncle ebeneezer
03-22-2010, 12:27 AM
Somebody better remove all the sharp objects from the Firedoglake break-room.

listener
03-22-2010, 12:34 AM
I missed seeing Obama's post-vote speech (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/35978439#35978439) live, so here it is for anyone else who may have missed it and would like to see it.

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 12:38 AM
The President (http://www.flickr.com/photos/whitehouse/4453307340/sizes/l/) reacts to the vote (photo).

GREAT pic. Thanks.

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 12:39 AM
Somebody better remove all the sharp objects from the Firedoglake break-room.

LOL!

uncle ebeneezer
03-22-2010, 12:42 AM
I would also have to say really "big ups" to b-head Ezra Klein. Throughout the entire process Ezra has provided exhaustively detailed posts about the content of the bill, the reality of the procedural process and really gave the readers the inside track on why this thing was not dead when the naysayers said it was. His blog has been positively obsessed with healthcare reform for several years and this must be an especially sweet night for him given that his unrelenting coverage played no small part in this achievement.

listener
03-22-2010, 12:45 AM
I would also have to say really "big ups" to b-head Ezra Klein. Throughout the entire process Ezra has provided exhaustively detailed posts about the content of the bill, the reality of the procedural process and really gave the readers the inside track on why this thing was not dead when the naysayers said it was. His blog has been positively obsessed with healthcare reform for several years and this must be an especially sweet night for him given that his unrelenting coverage played no small part in this achievement.

Yes... just following his twitter feeds tonight has helped me to make sense of all of the labyrinthine proceedings.

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 12:50 AM
I would also have to say really "big ups" to b-head Ezra Klein.

That sounds suspiciously European.

SOCIALIST!!!1!

But yeah. Ezra da man.

claymisher
03-22-2010, 12:51 AM
I would also have to say really "big ups" to b-head Ezra Klein. Throughout the entire process Ezra has provided exhaustively detailed posts about the content of the bill, the reality of the procedural process and really gave the readers the inside track on why this thing was not dead when the naysayers said it was. His blog has been positively obsessed with healthcare reform for several years and this must be an especially sweet night for him given that his unrelenting coverage played no small part in this achievement.

Absolutely. EK's the best.

You know who else deserves some credit? The Club for Growth for pushing Arlen Specter into the Democratic party, getting that 60th vote. Great job guys!

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 12:53 AM
I missed seeing Obama's post-vote speech (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/35978439#35978439) live, so here it is for anyone else who may have missed it and would like to see it.

Thanks.

Also, transcript here (http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/president-obama-hails-historic-health-care-vote.php).

It begins:

THE PRESIDENT: Good evening, everybody. Tonight, after nearly 100 years of talk and frustration, after decades of trying, and a year of sustained effort and debate, the United States Congress finally declared that America's workers and America's families and America's small businesses deserve the security of knowing that here, in this country, neither illness nor accident should endanger the dreams they've worked a lifetime to achieve.

Tonight, at a time when the pundits said it was no longer possible, we rose above the weight of our politics. We pushed back on the undue influence of special interests. We didn't give in to mistrust or to cynicism or to fear. Instead, we proved that we are still a people capable of doing big things and tackling our biggest challenges. We proved that this government -- a government of the people and by the people -- still works for the people.

uncle ebeneezer
03-22-2010, 12:55 AM
Damn right. When can we get started with the Death Panels!! ;)

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 12:57 AM
Absolutely. EK's the best.

You know who else deserves some credit? The Club for Growth for pushing Arlen Specter into the Democratic party, getting that 60th vote. Great job guys!

LOL! Yes.

But I would also like to thank the two hundred or so members of the House, and fifty or so members of the Senate, who let the President and the Congressional leadership know early on, and who stuck to it when times were tough, without being drama queens, without being camera hogs, without asking for pork, that they could be counted on to vote YEA.

Democrats all, and truly, great Americans.

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 01:04 AM
Damn right. When can we get started with the Death Panels!! ;)

Death Panels, hell. It's time to open the Obama Death Camps!!!1! (http://www.google.com/search?q=obama+death+camps)

uncle ebeneezer
03-22-2010, 01:14 AM
I can't find the quote but Dingell pointed out that the President asked Republicans to work with him but they all said "No" to the American people so we had to do it alone.

claymisher
03-22-2010, 01:17 AM
Back August (seven months ago!) I linked a couple of pieces by Mark Schmitt (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=125873#post125873). This is what Schmitt wrote in a piece called "The Audacity of Patience" back in November 2008:

Obama will need a full reservoir of that same patience in the White House, because he'll face similar frantic pressure and second-guessing. He will be surrounded by a crippling crowd of people and groups convinced that if their own No. 1 cause isn't enacted in the first 100 days, it will never happen. The conventional wisdom about the presidency is very much the same as the advice Obama was given in the primaries: Move quickly. Overwhelm the forces of the establishment. Use the momentum of the election to achieve the biggest things possible. You'll never be more powerful than on Jan. 21.

If Obama ignores this conventional wisdom, he will not do so because he's crazy or lazy but because he's taking the same approach to governing as he took to the election. It will mean he's taking the long view, gambling on patience, and carefully putting into place the pieces that win lasting majorities for progressive policies, just as he won a majority of delegates and a majority of votes in the election. ...


And this is what I wrote:
I don't know, I doubt this paradigm of manly he-man versus wimpy pushover explains whether a politician is successful in advancing the agenda. ...

What do the Republicans got? Sarah Palin's facebook page? Mobs at town halls? The Republicans have nothing and it shows. I think it was worth going through the process to demonstrate that. We think the Bush tactics worked, but look were Bush ended up: on the top ten list of the worst presidents ever. ...

It's not emotionally satisfying for a lot of us, but I think Obama's approach is probably the strategy most likely to succeed.

Finally, he's a black guy named Barack Hussein Obama and he got himself elected president. I think he knows something about politics.

I was right! So there! ;)

JonIrenicus
03-22-2010, 01:19 AM
It kind of gives me a headache. That probably makes some of you even happier. Enjoy it.

listener
03-22-2010, 01:22 AM
GREAT pic. Thanks.

And thanks for crediting me when you posted it on your blog (my fifteen <strikeout> minutes <strikeout> seconds of fame).

And in the spirit of mercy for the ignorant, pray tell me what "h/t" stands for.

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 01:28 AM
And thanks for crediting me when you posted it on your blog (my fifteen <strikeout> minutes <strikeout> seconds of fame).

Delighted. Credit where credit is due. [Added: And thanks for checking out my blog!]

And in the spirit of mercy for the ignorant, pray tell me what "h/t" stands for.

It's an old bloggy-style shorthand, for "hat tip."

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 01:32 AM
I can't find the quote but Dingell pointed out that the President asked Republicans to work with him but they all said "No" to the American people so we had to do it alone.

How'd you like to be a moderate Republican ... okay, strike that ... how'd you like to be a Republican in a swing district that has to go back to the voters and your one selling point is, "Just like with all the other important pieces of legislation, I along with every other Republican voted NO!!!1!"

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 01:33 AM
Back August (seven months ago!) I linked a couple of pieces by Mark Schmitt (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=125873#post125873). This is what Schmitt wrote in a piece called "The Audacity of Patience" back in November 2008:



And this is what I wrote:


I was right! So there! ;)

Yep. Kudos to you and Mark.

And Tim F. (http://www.balloon-juice.com/category/59-41-senate-minority/)

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 01:35 AM
It kind of gives me a headache. That probably makes some of you even happier.

Nope (http://twitter.com/bjkeefe/status/10858226533).

Enjoy it.

But thanks.

TwinSwords
03-22-2010, 01:38 AM
I was right! So there! ;)
Congratulations on the validation!

It's really something to consider all the millions and millions of words of political commentary that were invalidated by tonight's vote. And the millions of hours of recorded political commentary to the effect of Obama's failure and Democratic incompetence -- all invalidated in the course of a few votes in the House.

Lyle
03-22-2010, 01:40 AM
http://reason.com/blog/2010/03/21/health-care-reform-passes-but

The retail argument in favor of the bill was basically twofold: It provides affordable insurance coverage for 30 million, and it reduces the deficit, thereby making it fiscally sensible.

But CBO is clear: In conjunction with the upcoming doc fix—which was split off from the original bill and will be passed later—it doesn't lower the deficit. And if Medicare savings are used to extend the solvency of the program, as Democrats frequently claim will happen, then that eats up the deficit reduction.

The coverage figure is the best argument for the bill; all indications are that it's likely to result in health coverage for 30 million or more individuals. But the evidence that it will do so in an affordable manner is thin. The CBO estimates that the average premium cost will rise 10-13 percent (with a little more than half of folks receiving subsidies). And despite claims that the bill will put a stop to big rate increases, the evidence of the Massachusetts plan, which is very similar to Obamacare, suggests otherwise: Since the start of its plan, that state has seen double digit rate hikes, and expects more to come. And its average premium price is the highest in the nation. How can anyone possibly define this as "affordable"?

In the end, then, we're left with a highly expensive, fiscally dangerous expansion of health insurance that locks even more people into a broken system. That's an achievement, all right, but not a particularly good one.

claymisher
03-22-2010, 01:50 AM
And Tim F. (http://www.balloon-juice.com/category/59-41-senate-minority/)

HCR really transformed Balloon Juice. They went from being jokesters to earnest activists. Good for them!

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 01:54 AM
HCR really transformed Balloon Juice. They went from being jokesters to earnest activists. Good for them!

I also notice that lately they seem to be getting quite a bit more mention on big-time blogs. Again, good for them.

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 01:55 AM
http://reason.com/blog/2010/03/21/health-care-reform-passes-but

I am shocked, shocked that a Koch-funded PR firm finds something to dislike about HCR.

[Added] BTW, the wonkish rebuttal links at the bottom of this post (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=155137#post155137) probably also apply.

And tell me, Lial. It's a little late for a FUD campaign. Are you just trying to piss on other people's happiness?

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 02:03 AM
Congratulations on the validation!

It's really something to consider all the millions and millions of words of political commentary that were invalidated by tonight's vote.

Expected number of pundit jobs lost as a consequence: 0.

Also, Krugman is shrill. Still.

TwinSwords
03-22-2010, 02:10 AM
Expected number of pundit jobs lost as a consequence: 0.

Also, Krugman is shrill. Still.

LOL, no doubt. You know, it doesn't go far enough to say that millions of words and millions of hours of video and audio were snuffed out of relevance in the course of tonight's vote. The fact is that the entire conventional wisdom of Obama's first year in office has just gone up in smoke. Poof!

All those teabagger rallies, all the hystrionics, all the declarations of Democratic failure and Obama's inability to push his agenda are now replaced with the most substantive legislative record in ... how long? Years? Or decades?

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 02:17 AM
LOL, no doubt. You know, it doesn't go far enough to say that millions of words and millions of hours of video and audio were snuffed out of relevance in the course of tonight's vote. The fact is that the entire conventional wisdom of Obama's first year in office has just gone up in smoke. Poof!

All those teabagger rallies, all the hystrionics, all the declarations of Democratic failure and Obama's inability to push his agenda are now replaced with the most substantive legislative record in ... how long? Years? Or decades?

The CW is that this alone is the biggest piece of legislation (from the Dems) in at least a generation. For once, I am happy to identify with the CW.

claymisher
03-22-2010, 02:19 AM
LOL, no doubt. You know, it doesn't go far enough to say that millions of words and millions of hours of video and audio were snuffed out of relevance in the course of tonight's vote. The fact is that the entire conventional wisdom of Obama's first year in office has just gone up in smoke. Poof!

All those teabagger rallies, all the histrionics, all the declarations of Democratic failure and Obama's inability to push his agenda are now replaced with the most substantive legislative record in ... how long? Years? Or decades?

Be interesting to see what happens on climate change. Lindsey Graham supports cap and trade. McCain said he did in 2008. I like cap and dividend, Cantwell-Collins (http://www.grist.org/article/why-cantwell-collins-is-best-and-how-it-just-might-win/). You can't beat a dividend check payed for with hidden taxes for politcal popularity.

Lyle
03-22-2010, 02:25 AM
You better believe I'm pissing on you. Piss, piss, piss. :)

Again, you're piss poor argument of "they're not funded by liberals, but somebody else" is silly and defeats just about every argument you've ever made... since you're a partisan and almost always rely on partisan talking points and reports. This bill won't help the deficit, and we'll be arguing over cutting Medicare, Social Security, and God knows what else years from now when the piss really hits the fan.

Of course there's this (http://keithhennessey.com/2010/03/19/no-new-promises/), this (http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/03/first-thoughts-on-the-cbo-score/37720/), this (http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/09/obamacare-health-democrats-congress-opinions-columnists-shikha-dalmia.html?boxes=opinionschannellighttop) and this (http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/19/checking-the-math-on-health-care/) too, to go along with Suderman's reading of what just happened. So go ahead, drown in my piss and suffocate on my linkage. :)

Wonderment
03-22-2010, 02:29 AM
It kind of gives me a headache.

Take an aspirin (taxpayer treat!) and get over it.

Even though zero Republicans voted for the bill, it was a bipartisan compromise centrist piece of legislation.

Most Dems. supported something much more comprehensive and far-reaching. Progressives supported the plan because it was considerably better than nothing, saved the Obama presidency from disaster, and because the alternative was utter capitulation to fear-mongering loons.

But don't forget that liberals had to compromise and make sacrifices every inch of the way, up to and including today's Executive Order to curry votes from the religious right.

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 02:32 AM
I've been waiting quite a few hours to post this (http://img691.imageshack.us/i/wonkettecelebrateshcr.png/) screen grab:

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/2971/wonkettecelebrateshcr.png

Taken from here (http://wonkette.com/414342/victory-party-to-nite-obama-bringing-limo-full-of-nurseshookers-blow). Your Wonkettes (http://wonkette.com/) have outdone even themselves with their special weekend coverage. Latest headline (http://wonkette.com/414362/nancy-pelosis-magic-hammer-gives-obama-full-dictatorship-of-earth):

Nancy Pelosi’s Magic Hammer Gives Obama Full Dictatorship of Earth!

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 02:39 AM
Take an aspirin (taxpayer treat!) and get over it.

Even though zero Republicans voted for the bill, it was a bipartisan compromise centrist piece of legislation.

Most Dems. supported something much more comprehensive and far-reaching. Progressives supported the plan because it was considerably better than nothing, saved the Obama presidency from disaster, and because the alternative was utter capitulation to fear-mongering loons.

But don't forget that liberals had to compromise and make sacrifices every inch of the way, up to and including today's Executive Order to curry votes from the religious right.

Correct. As Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi pointed out in her remarks after the voting had concluded, the bill as passed contains over two hundred Republican amendments.

[Added] (ref. (http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/pelosi-invokes-ted-kennedy-in-floor-speech-on-health-care.php))

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 02:44 AM
I've been waiting quite a few hours to post this (http://img691.imageshack.us/i/wonkettecelebrateshcr.png/) screen grab:

Also, how about this Tweet (http://twitter.com/PressSec/status/10857813920)?

(via (http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/live/countdown-to-reform-wire/#325936))

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 02:46 AM
LOL, no doubt. You know, it doesn't go far enough to say that millions of words and millions of hours of video and audio were snuffed out of relevance in the course of tonight's vote. The fact is that the entire conventional wisdom of Obama's first year in office has just gone up in smoke. Poof!

Also on that note: Should Rahm now be canonized or executed?

TwinSwords
03-22-2010, 02:52 AM
Also on that note: Should Rahm now be canonized or executed?

Well, according to the talking heads on MSNBC this evening, Rahm was advising Obama to pull back HCR after the Brown victory in Mass., and break the bill into small pieces, taking a more cautious, moderate approach, rather than passing the legislation that had already passed both the House and Senate.

Pelosi refused that course, and thank God she did.

TwinSwords
03-22-2010, 03:01 AM
LMAO (http://www.rumproast.com/index.php/site/comments/death_panels_are_go/):

Death Panels are GO! ...

Not sure if they’ll go alphabetical by last name or last three digits in your SSN. Just be ready when you get your confirmation number.

TwinSwords
03-22-2010, 03:03 AM
First commenter on that post:

I’m so excited. Has anyone figured out the effect on the economy of building all of these new “relocation camps” and transporting old people and conservatives by rail to them, or how the recovered gold can be used to pay down the national debt? It’s like a second stimulus package!

Can’t wait to get my free abortion coupons in the mail…

I hear you'll be able to go to the new TaxpayerFundedAbortionOnDemand.gov website and just print the coupons from there. So no need to wait for them to arrive by mail!

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 03:08 AM
First commenter on that post:



I hear you'll be able to go to the new TaxpayerFundedAbortionOnDemand.gov website and just print the coupons from there. So no need to wait for them to arrive by mail!

I just tried it. Looks like it redirects to CompulsoryAbortionsAreAnAffirmationOfLife.ke.

TwinSwords
03-22-2010, 03:24 AM
.ke.

Heh. Nice (http://www.google.com/search?q=.ke+domain&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLL_en).

listener
03-22-2010, 03:26 AM
I just tried it. Looks like it redirects to CompulsoryAbortionsAreAnAffirmationOfLife.ke.

You guys are having too much fun. (And are too funny!)

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 04:07 AM
Also, how about this Tweet (http://twitter.com/PressSec/status/10857813920)?

(via (http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/live/countdown-to-reform-wire/#325936))

And how about this one (http://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/10852146480)?

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 04:18 AM
Yep. Kudos to you and Mark.

And Tim F. (http://www.balloon-juice.com/category/59-41-senate-minority/)

Follow-up (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/22/early-morning-open-thread-thanks-tim/) and thanks (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/21/more-thanks/).

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 04:21 AM
LOL! Ad that just appeared at the top of this thread's page is attached.

Can you say "worried about reelection," hmmm?

Eric Cantor = a trainwreck of FAIL.

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 09:35 AM
When's the Senate voting on reconciliation bill anyway?

Still don't have a better answer than "pretty soon, probably," but here are some deep-in-the-weeds details of the process (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/not-over-yet-senate-must-finalize-health-care.php), if you want them.

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 09:57 AM
B'head Robert "Michael Tomasky (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/22/health-care-vote-us-obama)" DeNiro has a nice piece in the Guardian about this historic moment.

uncle ebeneezer
03-22-2010, 12:02 PM
Doh!! (http://twitter.com/SteveKingIA/statuses/10869475517)

nikkibong
03-22-2010, 12:17 PM
mccain the pathetic
http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheat-sheet/item/mccain-there-will-be-no-cooperation/nuclear-options/?cid=cs:headline4

uncle ebeneezer
03-22-2010, 12:39 PM
It seems to me that a "headache" is the perfect metaphor for this whole thing. The Republican argument has largely been: "I like my healthcare. Forget about the 32 Million who would be covered by the bill, the slight headache it might cause me is more important." From there it got exponentially nastier, but that was the heart of it. "I got mine, fuck the rest of you."

My favorite aunt and Godmother is battling terminal cancer and has been struggling with it for years. She's a single mom with two college-age kids and it has always been a struggle for her trying to work to be able to pay for her coverage while enduring endless treatments to keep her alive. Ironically she is a hardcore Libertarian who distrusts the evil workings of government. We don't talk about that stuff because we will only end up arguing. Anyways, she is very proud and doesn't want everyone to see her fight now, so she's stopped returning phone calls or e-mails (at least from myself.) After 12 years of treatment I just found out that she's had enough and has stopped all treatments. She doesn't have long. I don't know the details of her finances but whatever debt accumulates, she is not rolling in dough, and the burden will fall on her kids. It's probably too late for HCR to make any difference in her physical battle, but at least it will help similar families who face that situation. From the perspective of any of the millions of Americans who will now have better prospects in getting insurance, affording coverage and combatting the unavoidable health challenges that are a part of human life, the "headaches" that Republicans are suffering today seem mighty trivial by comparison.

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 12:49 PM
Doh!! (http://twitter.com/SteveKingIA/statuses/10869475517)

LOL!

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 12:52 PM
mccain the pathetic
http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheat-sheet/item/mccain-there-will-be-no-cooperation/nuclear-options/?cid=cs:headline4

@pourmecoffee: "COUNTRY LAST (http://twitter.com/pourmecoffee/status/10877294090)."

And see also (http://twitter.com/pourmecoffee/status/10878464868), though that seems a little too grown-up to me.

kezboard
03-22-2010, 12:52 PM
NO! Take it back, John! Whatever shall we do!?

uncle ebeneezer
03-22-2010, 01:07 PM
I remember those articles quite well. I think I also linked to them around the same time in another (related) thread. I remember when there were only a handful of us keeping the faith that this thing could get done. I'm glad we were right and continued to try. But I would have been proud of the effort even if the result had been different. When I decided to get onboard with the pressure-your-reps approach and I started to preach to my liberal-leaning friends, I always made sure to remind them "this is how the system works. These guys live and die by the will of their constituents (and their $, of course) and it is only by making our wishes known to them that they will act in our behalf." And that, more than any back-patting is the point. That said, thanks Clay, for keeping up the good fight even when things were looking most bleak.

claymisher
03-22-2010, 01:21 PM
Chris Matthews telling Alan Grayson that HCR can't pass:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NN73muZZcw#t=5m

Oh the condescension!

uncle ebeneezer
03-22-2010, 01:40 PM
And for those who ask "Waht's in it for me?" A good answer of the cost controls (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/03/the_five_most_promising_cost_c.html#more) that the bill provides. Making sure the electorate is aware of this element of the bill, is crucial for November.

listener
03-22-2010, 01:56 PM
Chris Matthews telling Alan Grayson that HCR can't pass:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NN73muZZcw#t=5m

Oh the condescension!

Har har. I suppose there must now be an endless supply of clips like these, of pundits deriding the possibility of HCR passing.

Wonderment
03-22-2010, 02:48 PM
It seems to me that a "headache" is the perfect metaphor for this whole thing. The Republican argument has largely been: "I like my healthcare. Forget about the 32 Million who would be covered by the bill, the slight headache it might cause me is more important." From there it got exponentially nastier, but that was the heart of it. "I got mine, fuck the rest of you."

Yes, HRC, even in its very watered-down form, will help millions of people, especially the poor and disadvantaged. That Republicans opposed it every step of the way is an enduring testament to their extraordinary, ideologically-driven intransigence.

It's not that Republicans don't feel just as bad for you aunt as the rest of the political world does. They have aunts too. But they are locked into a reactionary economic ideology which in turn is fueled by populist racism, resentment and religious extremism.

However, the Dems. should not get complacent. Anti-immigrant and religious fanatic elements in their own party, along with corporate lobbying and political corruption, weakened the bill and almost destroyed it.

uncle ebeneezer
03-22-2010, 03:03 PM
Good points all. My prediction is that come 2012 the GOP narrative will be that the problem with healthcare will be back to the "illegal immigrants!!1!" who keep clogging up the Emergency rooms and ruining it for "real Americans" etc. Like Medicare and Social Security the public will be largely happy with HCR, and the GOP will conveniently avoid any recollection of all the fear-mongering and misinformation that we all just witnessed the past year.

PS meant to add, applause to all of you on the extreme left for ultimately doing the right thing. I hope you will be rewarded in future rounds of tweaking the legislation (public option etc.)

claymisher
03-22-2010, 06:59 PM
The man who first said "pass the damn bill" -- Steve Benen:

Success has many parents (of both sexes), and in this case needed more than one Godfather. I won’t dissent from Jonathan Chait’s praise of the President, John Judis’ kudos to pressure from grassroots Democrats, or—especially, since it flatters my Whiggish sympathies and corrects for the presidentialist bias of the press—Steve Benen’s and Mike’s (Update: and James’) emphasis on Speaker Pelosi as the colossus who bestrode the whole process.

But I’d like to single out one person who deserves more praise than he’s going to claim or is likely to get: Steve Benen himself. After Scott Brown won, Democrats’ first reaction was panic. The analogy most often drawn, though it in retrospect seems deranged to compare the loss of a Senate super-majority to the loss of both Houses, was to Clinton’s situation, and his reaction, after the Republican victories of 1994. Steve stepped in on January 20—just a day after Coakley’s loss, a full week before the State of the Union—with an alternative: “pass the damn bill,” and then amend it via reconciliation. I believe he invented the slogan, though Kevin Drum picked it up a few hours later. I know that he flogged it, immediately, relentlessly and repeatedly, through good news and bad: see, for example, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here. It became proverbial. It became the popular title—and, thanks to alert fans, the easy-to-remember URL—of Steve’s pithy, powerful strategy memo making the case for moving forward. It cemented Democratic opinion around the idea that failure was not an option—and, more important, that incremental reform counted as failure.



http://www.samefacts.com/2010/03/blogging/benens-bill/

bjkeefe
03-23-2010, 03:05 AM
mccain the pathetic
http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheat-sheet/item/mccain-there-will-be-no-cooperation/nuclear-options/?cid=cs:headline4

Good post on this from Jon Chait (http://www.tnr.com/blog/jonathan-chait/vengeance-will-be-mccains), via Jim Newell (http://wonkette.com/414380/414380).

I am so glad that picture exists. Maybe someday we could put it on the two-cent coin. Or the plugged nickel.

bjkeefe
03-23-2010, 06:48 AM
Revenge is sweet: Jim DeMint's Facebook gets "ABBA"-rolled (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/3/22/849126/-Jim-DeMints-FB-Page:-Being-ABBA-Rolled) by libtards. Also, phunny Photoshops! Especially this (http://www.balloon-juice.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/waterloo2.jpg) one.

http://www.balloon-juice.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/waterloo2.jpg

Start here (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/22/waterlewd/).

bjkeefe
03-23-2010, 06:53 AM
The man who first said "pass the damn bill" -- Steve Benen:

http://www.samefacts.com/2010/03/blogging/benens-bill/

Yeah, Steve Benen is a good man. If you ever need a shot of encouragement about sticking to the path we've chosen, the Poli-Sci-Fi Radio (http://www.poliscifiradio.com/) podcast (or live stream (http://www.poliscifiradio.com/?page_id=23), Sundays, 4pm Eastern) is highly recommended. (It's highly recommended for other reasons, too.)

[Added] I see Tim F. (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/22/credit-where-credit-will-help/) has given him a shout-out, too. More importantly, Tim has the beginning version of a list of those House members who deserve credit for their courage, for casting the correct vote in the face of certain targeting by the GOP, without needing their butts wiped like a few members I could name. I can't vouch for any of them personally, except for the first one on the list, obvs., but I have heard good things about some of them. People reading this may want to see if their Representative is on the list, and if donations are not an option, at least call his or her office to say thanks. If you've been following Tim's reporting on this at all, you know how slammed these offices were getting by angry shouty phone calls from out-of-district wingnuts, teabaggers, astroturf-driven tools, dittoheads, etc.

bjkeefe
03-23-2010, 07:17 AM
Good post on this from Jon Chait (http://www.tnr.com/blog/jonathan-chait/vengeance-will-be-mccains), via Jim Newell (http://wonkette.com/414380/414380).

I am so glad that picture exists. Maybe someday we could put it on the two-cent coin. Or the plugged nickel.

Official response (http://democrats.senate.gov/newsroom/record.cfm?id=323292&) to Angry Johnny (via (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/22/country-first-4/)):

Reid Spokesman: McCain Comments Confirm That Republicans Plan To Stand On The Sidelines And Do Nothing

Washington, DC—Spokesman for Nevada Senator Harry Reid, Jim Manley, released the following statement today regarding Senator McCain’s comment pledging no cooperation from Republicans for the rest of the year:

“For someone who campaigned on ‘Country First’ and claims to take great pride in bipartisanship, it’s absolutely bizarre for Senator McCain to tell the American people he is going to take his ball and go home until the next election. He must be living in some parallel universe because the fact is, with very few exceptions, we’ve gotten very little cooperation from Senate Republicans in recent years.

“At a time when our economy is suffering and we’re fighting two wars, the American people need Senator McCain and his fellow Republicans to start working with us to confront the challenges facing our country—not reiterating their constant opposition to helping working families when they need it most.”

bjkeefe
03-24-2010, 12:55 AM
[Added] I see Tim F. (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/22/credit-where-credit-will-help/) has given him a shout-out, too. More importantly, Tim has the beginning version of a list of those House members who deserve credit for their courage, for casting the correct vote in the face of certain targeting by the GOP, without needing their butts wiped like a few members I could name. I can't vouch for any of them personally, except for the first one on the list, obvs., but I have heard good things about some of them. People reading this may want to see if their Representative is on the list, and if donations are not an option, at least call his or her office to say thanks. If you've been following Tim's reporting on this at all, you know how slammed these offices were getting by angry shouty phone calls from out-of-district wingnuts, teabaggers, astroturf-driven tools, dittoheads, etc.

Some more on this here (http://www.actblue.com/page/wevegotyourback2). For context, especially about the newest addition to the list, Rep. Tom Perriello of Virginia, start here (http://wonkette.com/414397/teabagger-tries-to-harass-congressmans-house-lists-wrong-address-stands-by-his-journalism). Journamalism!

listener
03-24-2010, 01:10 AM
People reading this may want to see if their Representative is on the list, and if donations are not an option, at least call his or her office to say thanks.

Though my Congressman and Senators are not at risk because of their votes in favor of the bill, your post moved me to write to each of them thanking them for their votes and leadership in passing it.

bjkeefe
03-24-2010, 01:44 AM
Though my Congressman and Senators are not at risk because of their votes in favor of the bill, your post moved me to write to each of them thanking them for their votes and leadership in passing it.

Hey, great! Good on you!

bjkeefe
03-24-2010, 05:28 AM
HCR Passes the House!

Yes! (http://blog.prospect.org/blog/weblog/Obamafist-bump.jpg)

http://blog.prospect.org/blog/weblog/Obamafist-bump.jpg

TERRORIST FIST JAB!!!1!

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/9676/ohnozvg7.gif

(via (http://twitter.com/AdamSerwer/status/10944791034))

bjkeefe
03-24-2010, 05:49 AM
When's the Senate voting on reconciliation bill anyway?

Still don't have a better answer than "pretty soon, probably," but here are some deep-in-the-weeds details of the process (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/not-over-yet-senate-must-finalize-health-care.php), if you want them.

Some moar, from occasional B'head Brian Beutler (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/vote-a-rama-a-tick-tock-on-the-senates-final-health-care-process.php?ref=fpb): "Vote-A-Rama! A Tick Tock On The Senate's Final Health Care Process."

His bottom line:

After the 20 hours [of "debate"], though, there's still work to be done.

The Senate will still have to clear every amendment on the table before taking a final vote on the reconciliation. That happens in what's known as vote-a-rama: vote upon vote upon vote with no intervening debate. At the most, Senators will get two minutes to explain what their amendments do, and then hope against hope that they have 51 votes to pass them. There are other dilatory tactics the Republicans can use--amendments can be read aloud, and they can flood the zone with irrelevant amendments just to eat up time. But the Senate chair can circumvent delay tactics, if he determines that they're purely dilatory.

Once all the amendments are cleared, there's a final vote--at 51-member threshold for passage. If the bill hasn't changed one iota--and that would be a major accomplishment--then it's done. Just like the big health care bill, it goes to the President to be signed. That's what Senate leaders hope happens. If any amendments pass, though, or if any Republican objections are sustained, it has to go back to the House for another vote.

Vote-a-rama should kick off Thursday, and will last...an undetermined amount of time--and that means, once again, members and staff are prepared to be in town this weekend.

bjkeefe
03-24-2010, 03:33 PM
Some more on this here (http://www.actblue.com/page/wevegotyourback2). For context, especially about the newest addition to the list, Rep. Tom Perriello of Virginia, start here (http://wonkette.com/414397/teabagger-tries-to-harass-congressmans-house-lists-wrong-address-stands-by-his-journalism). Journamalism!

Follow-up on this Perriello story here (http://wonkette.com/414422/virginia-teabaggers-still-think-congressman-lives-in-brothers-house-cut-gas-line). Vandamalism!

bjkeefe
03-24-2010, 07:30 PM
Some moar, from occasional B'head Brian Beutler (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/vote-a-rama-a-tick-tock-on-the-senates-final-health-care-process.php?ref=fpb): "Vote-A-Rama! A Tick Tock On The Senate's Final Health Care Process."

Via Tim F. (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/24/like-we-said/): Ezra predicts (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/03/vote-a-rama_cometh.html) vote-a-rama won't be too bad, because, he says, the Republicans have lost heart on this one, and/or think that if they persist in delaying matters, it'll just make them look worse. I hope he's right.

claymisher
03-24-2010, 09:09 PM
Dennis Kucinich on why he voted yes:

When it comes to analyzing the law we've just passed, it's hard to use terms like good or bad. Because ultimately what was decisive for me was not the bill, but rather the potential to create an opening for a more comprehensive approach toward health care reform. If the bill were to go down, this whole discussion about anything we might hope to do in health care in the future is not going to happen in this generation. We had to wait sixteen years after the demise of the Clinton plan to come to this moment. And the angst that members are feeling about this bill — the temperature that's been raised in the body politic over this bill, the characterizations of the bill in a debate that's been quite distorted — all of those things argue against bringing up another health care bill in the near future if this bill were to go down.

Well I had to consider that. Because I have to take responsibility for that.

Someone in the media said that I was prepared to be the Ralph Nader of health care reform. If by the Ralph Nader of health care reform someone means someone who holds crooked corporations accountable, then that's a compliment. If they were referring to the 2000 presidential race, I think those who were closest in the Gore campaign realize that that campaign was death by a thousand cuts. And to try to put it all on Ralph Nader is, you know, historically glib.

But the synthesis of that argument was this: People were telling me, "Dennis, you are helping to gather momentum in the direction toward the defeat of the bill." That's what people were telling me. That's what the message was. And: "Is this something you really want to do?" And of course I have to consider, when the vote is close, and however the final tally turns, but whether the bill passes by one vote or five votes or more, the question of momentum was something everyone was concerned about at that point. And people were concerned that if I continued to maintain my position of hammering away at the defects of the bill that I may cause its defeat. That's a legitimate criticism. It's something that I had to take into account in terms of my personal responsibility for the position that I held, and the impact that it would have on my constituents. We always have to be open to people who may hold a view that may be different than yours. Because you might learn something.

And so as we came closer, and it appeared that I would be in a pivotal position, I realized that the moment required me to look at this in the broadest terms possible. To look at this in terms of the long-term impact on my constituents, of the moment in history in which we now stand, of the impact on the country, of the impact on the Obama presidency, on the impact on the president personally. I had to think about all of this. I couldn't just say, "Well here's my position: I'm for single-payer, and this isn't single-payer, so I'm going to defeat the bill."

Last year, seventy-seven members of Congress agreed that if the bill didn't have a public option, they were going to vote against it. And there were only two members who had kept that pledge when it was voted on the first time in the House. And I was one of them. And the other one's no longer in Congress. So I basically was the last man standing here. So I'm aware of the debate that took place in favor of the bill. My concern was that this bill was hermetically sealed to admit no opening toward a not-for-profit system, no competition from the public sector with the private insurers. Which makes the claims of a government takeover such a joke. You know, those who claim that this is socialism probably don't know anything about socialism — or capitalism.

Those claims are just part of an effort to destroy the Obama presidency. And, of course, to produce gridlock — so that nothing can happen. Because if this bill goes down, which figured into my calculus — the bill goes down, we'll be gridlocked. We will be unlikely to pass any meaningful legislation about anything. The presidency will be weakened, the Congress will be in a place where the leadership will be undermined.

But let's go deeper than that. We're at a pivotal moment in American history, and in contrast to a crippled presidency, I have to believe that this effort, however imperfect, will now have a broad positive effect on American society, and make possible many things that might not have otherwise been possible. Once this bill is signed into law, more Americans are going to be aware of this as they ask, What's in it for me? And as they become more familiar with the new law, more people will be accepting this bill. The president will have a stronger hand in domestic and international affairs, and that will be good for the country. The Democrats will be emboldened to pass an economic agenda, which has been waiting for this bill to pass. Wrong or right, as far as a strategy, the White House invested so much in this health care bill that everything else was waiting. Now, I think there's a chance that the party will regain some momentum. And if it does, then the American people will finally have a chance to see something done about creating jobs, about keeping people in their homes, about helping small businesses get access to credit, which is a huge problem right now.

And so I think that the pivot here could be toward a very exciting time where the Obama presidency gets a chance to hit the reset button. This is my hope, at least.



http://www.esquire.com/print-this/dennis-kucinich-health-care-bill-032210

(I had this open in an old tab that I just got to so I apologize if somebody else already posted it)

TwinSwords
03-24-2010, 11:24 PM
Dennis Kucinich on why he voted yes:

Thanks very much for posting. I know a number of progressives who are furious about the bill that passed, and feel betrayed by Kucinich. Maybe this will help them understand there are greater considerations than their own selfish insistence that they get their way every time on a schedule of their own choosing.

bjkeefe
03-28-2010, 06:37 PM
*** BURN AFTER READING *** BURN AFTER READING *** BURN AFTER READING ***

Greetings, Socialist-Totalitarian Comrades and Bots of The One True Progressive Hive Mind!

This just in from VLWC HQ (http://www.rumproast.com/index.php/site/comments/what_booman_said1/):

What BooMan said

I was thinking the exact same thing (http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2010/3/23/16725/1660) earlier today:

Next up, the Republicans will go to court to challenge the mandate. They’ll lose, of course, but they’ll score political points like crazy because no one wants to be compelled to buy insurance from a private corporation. The answer, which should be repeated like a mantra, is, “I agree with you, so let’s create a publicly-administered alternative. If you don’t want to pay for CEO bonuses, cut out the middle man and buy the public option.”

The more unpopular the Republicans make the mandate, the more we can re-channel that unpopularity to support for a public alternative. It’s a trap that we must set.

[insert convoluted eleven dimensional chess joke here.]

(signed)
Agent 86, Go12

*** BURN AFTER READING *** BURN AFTER READING *** BURN AFTER READING ***

Ocean
03-28-2010, 06:52 PM
Agent 86, Go12



Max?

uncle ebeneezer
03-28-2010, 08:07 PM
Yes, thanks for sharing the link. This is pure gold:

You know, those who claim that this is socialism probably don't know anything about socialism — or capitalism.

listener
03-29-2010, 12:49 AM
Speaking of which, anyone remember this?

http://gothamist.com/attachments/nyc_arts_john/071408obamanewyorker.jpg

Starwatcher162536
03-29-2010, 01:00 AM
So does this mean I will be forced to buy health insurance?

bjkeefe
03-29-2010, 07:41 AM
Max?

Well done!

Ocean
03-29-2010, 07:42 AM
Well done!

La 99. ;)

listener
03-29-2010, 09:56 AM
La 99. ;)

....Can't hear a word you guys are saying... must be that damned Cone of Silence...

uncle ebeneezer
03-29-2010, 11:17 AM
Or maybe your holding the shoe/phone upside-down.

bjkeefe
03-29-2010, 11:22 AM
Or maybe your holding the shoe/phone upside-down.

That can't be the sole explanation.

popcorn_karate
03-29-2010, 05:25 PM
Maybe this will help them understand there are greater considerations than their own selfish insistence that they get their way even once in a lifetime

fixed that for you.

but yes, the process Obama engineered guaranteed that no progressive ideas would be in the bill - and that to kill it would be worse than passing it. he is a political genius.

good statement by kucinich.

listener
03-29-2010, 06:31 PM
That can't be the sole explanation.


groan!

(wish i'd thought of that)

uncle ebeneezer
03-29-2010, 06:47 PM
Unless he put his foot in his mouth!!

TwinSwords
03-29-2010, 09:32 PM
fixed that for you.

but yes, the process Obama engineered guaranteed that no progressive ideas would be in the bill - and that to kill it would be worse than passing it. he is a political genius.

good statement by kucinich.

You don't think the Democrats have done anything good for you ever, not even once in your whole lifetime?

Can I ask, what do you think of the left right paradigm?

TwinSwords
03-29-2010, 09:33 PM
groan!

(wish i'd thought of that)

He caught us flat footed with that one!

uncle ebeneezer
03-29-2010, 09:41 PM
the process Obama engineered guaranteed that no progressive ideas would be in the bill

Do you consider: expanding coverage to 32 million (mostly poor), doing away with pre-existing conditions and introducing a federal mandate to be Conservative ideas?

bjkeefe
03-29-2010, 09:57 PM
Do you consider: expanding coverage to 32 million (mostly poor), doing away with pre-existing conditions and introducing a federal mandate to be Conservative ideas?

I'd add, @p_k: why not try to see this bill as halfway toward the goal you really wanted to see for HCR? Should be easier to get there from where we are now, compared to where we were a couple of years ago.

And see also (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=156523#post156523), if you haven't already.

popcorn_karate
03-29-2010, 11:57 PM
I'd add, @p_k: why not try to see this bill as halfway toward the goal you really wanted to see for HCR? Should be easier to get there from where we are now, compared to where we were a couple of years ago.

And see also (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=156523#post156523), if you haven't already.

as i posted elsewhere, that is my hope.

And like Kucinich, i would have had to hold my nose and vote for this monstrosity of a bill if I was in position to do so.

its like getting a delicious triple-chocolate fudge cake - covered in shit frosting. yes there is cake in there, but its really a lot less appetizing than you expected.

TwinSwords
03-30-2010, 12:13 AM
as i posted elsewhere, that is my hope.

And like Kucinich, i would have had to hold my nose and vote for this monstrosity of a bill if I was in position to do so.

its like getting a delicious triple-chocolate fudge cake - covered in shit frosting. yes there is cake in there, but its really a lot less appetizing than you expected.

Life is like that, sometimes. You take what you can get. I don't think there is really anyone in the forum here, at least among the liberals, who would have crafted this health care legislation to come out the way it did. But we have to be realistic. We have a Democratic Party is that is pretty darn good -- better than any alternative -- with about 40 members in the Senate who would support single payer, and a handful more who would support a public option. But the fact of the matter is that in the American system you need 60 votes to get legislation through the Senate. This means that when the Democrats still had sixty votes, they needed one hundred percent agreement to get anything passed. A "super-super-super majority," if you will. And among those 60 votes were conservatives like Lieberman, Nelson, Lincoln, Bayh, and Landrieu. It's not fair of you to condemn the entire party, or Obama, because of the institutional limitations placed upon them. They got the very best bill they could given the fact that they needed the support of the aforementioned Senators, and the prolife caucus in the House.

In fact, you should be in awe of the fact that they were able to get the legislation passed at all given the massive obstacles: 100% Republican obstruction, a multi-million dollar propaganda and astroturf campaign designed to intimidate, threaten, and harrass members of Congress, and a full-on campaign of bullshit from the media, broadcasting every dumb tweet from the half governor of Alaska and any other dimwit who could make up false charges about "rationing" or "death panels" or Zeke Emanuel's plot to exterminate the population.

The Democrats basically needed to pitch a perfect game to get this bill passed, and they did. Now our entire country will be better for it. We had exactly one chance to get this done, and we did. Celebrate, man!

The bill's not perfect, but it will be a whole lot easier to amend and improve existing legislation than it was to get it done from scratch. Especially with the Democrats facing losses in November, if we had not done this now, we might have had to wait decades for another chance.