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View Full Version : Diavloggers you dislike but agree with. Diavlogger you like but disagree with.


Starwatcher162536
03-18-2010, 09:54 PM
Badhatharry recently stated that people tend to be more forgiving of the shortcomings of people who agree with us. This got me wondering about how strong said effect is.

So what diavloggers do you dislike but agree with? What diavloggers do you like but disagree with? Why?

I guess I will start.

In terms of policy decisions, I probably would not disagree a terrible great deal with Michelle Goldberg, but I dislike her as a diavlogger. Even if one disagrees on an issue, one should at least try to understand the thought process of those you disagree with. Michelle does not strike me as one that makes this effort. Watching her on that diavlog where she talked with Matt Welch about the tea-party people was just painful.

In terms of policy decisions, I probably would disagree with Matt Welch a terrible great deal, but I like him as a diavlogger.

Ocean
03-18-2010, 10:03 PM
In terms of policy decisions, I probably would not disagree a terrible great deal with Michelle Goldberg, but I dislike her as a diavlogger. Even if one disagrees on an issue, one should at least try to understand the thought process of those you disagree with. Michelle does not strike me as one that makes this effort. Watching her on that diavlog where she talked with Matt Welch about the tea-party people was just painful.


I'm afraid you've made some enemies already.

JonIrenicus
03-18-2010, 10:10 PM
I'm afraid you've made some enemies already.

Enemies are underrated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJTi7KJPx_E


They make for better stories, and a more interesting life.

popcorn_karate
03-19-2010, 04:30 PM
Badhatharry recently stated that people tend to be more forgiving of the shortcomings of people who agree with us. This got me wondering about how strong said effect is.

So what diavloggers do you dislike but agree with? What diavloggers do you like but disagree with? Why?

I guess I will start.

In terms of policy decisions, I probably would not disagree a terrible great deal with Michelle Goldberg, but I dislike her as a diavlogger. Even if one disagrees on an issue, one should at least try to understand the thought process of those you disagree with. Michelle does not strike me as one that makes this effort. Watching her on that diavlog where she talked with Matt Welch about the tea-party people was just painful.

In terms of policy decisions, I probably would disagree with Matt Welch a terrible great deal, but I like him as a diavlogger.

I'd agree with that.

reihan is someone i disagree with completely, but tend to like.

nikkibong
03-20-2010, 12:05 PM
In terms of policy decisions, I probably would not disagree a terrible great deal with Michelle Goldberg, but I dislike her as a diavlogger. Even if one disagrees on an issue, one should at least try to understand the thought process of those you disagree with. Michelle does not strike me as one that makes this effort. Watching her on that diavlog where she talked with Matt Welch about the tea-party people was just painful.


yeah...its not like she's written TWO BOOKS about people she "disagrees with."

http://www.kingdomcoming.com/

http://www.meansofreproduction.com/

jesus christ, get a clue. the one "lacking understanding" sure ain't MG.

bjkeefe
03-21-2010, 02:30 AM
I should have thought of this before, but have you ever heard of Sean Carroll's Grid of Disputation (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/06/the-grid-of-disputation/)?

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/files/2009/07/grid-of-disputation.jpg

listener
03-21-2010, 03:53 AM
I should have thought of this before, but have you ever heard of Sean Carroll's Grid of Disputation (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/06/the-grid-of-disputation/)...

Wow, great article! Among many other things, I appreciated Carroll's critique of the tactic used by some of the "New Atheists" of singling out the weakest arguments of their opponents for ridicule rather than, in true scientific spirit, "seeking out the views that most strongly and convincingly challenge their own." Ultimately, such tactics undermine the case for one's own point of view (viz. "Religulous").

Whether or not to choose to engage a particular opponent in debate is another question, and I agree with Carroll that one should not feel obligated to argue with every nut job who happens to disagree with you. But as one commenter on Carroll's article wrote, "[i]tís one thing to eschew debate with those who are patently incapable of engaging in substantive discourse, and quite another to heap contempt and abuse on them at every opportunity."

I also loved John Baez's "crackpot index (http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html)" that Carroll linked to in the article you cited.

bjkeefe
03-21-2010, 04:42 AM
I also loved John Baez's "crackpot index (http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html)" that Carroll linked to in the article you cited.

Yeah, that's one of the true classics of the Web, from a time when people had web sites, not blogs, and by God, marked up their own HTML by hand. And you downloaded it at 56Kbits/sec, if you were lucky. And you were thankful.

Where was I?

Oh, yeah. I can no longer hear "Galileo" without immediately thinking "40 points!"

(? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp4PtElQa5s))

listener
03-21-2010, 06:20 AM
(? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp4PtElQa5s))

Yes, well, I remember having to wake up before dawn to get the internet started up with a hand pump for half an hour, and then having to rely on a dixie cup and a string for hearing audio, mp1's we called them then, and nearly going blind watching the dayglo green letters fade up on the monochrome Kaypro monitor so that we could learn to master the "ctrl" commands in WordStar... and we were grateful

rfrobison
03-21-2010, 10:37 AM
I'd agree with that.

reihan is someone i disagree with completely, but tend to like.

How can you tell? I like Reihan, too. That is to say, I like hearing him talk. But I've yet to come away from any of his diavlogs thinking: "Wow, what an argument!" In fact, I couldn't tell you how he feels about much of anything policy-wise, only that he likes rap music.

And this is sad for me as I'm always on the lookout for smart righties to bolster my own feeble arguments. And he's reputedly on the right.

Or so I'm told.

Starwatcher162536
03-21-2010, 01:13 PM
Yes, she wrote two books painting the other side as stupid so hard lefties can have something to read while sipping coffee at Starbucks that lets them feel superior.

Forgive me for being unimpressed.

nikkibong
03-21-2010, 02:03 PM
Yes, she wrote two books painting the other side as stupid so hard lefties can have something to read while sipping coffee at Starbucks that lets them feel superior.

Forgive me for being unimpressed.

Forgive me for pointing out that you've clearly never read the books.

And, STARBUCKS? Last known to be hip in 1994. You're a wee bit behind the times.

claymisher
03-21-2010, 02:10 PM
How can you tell? I like Reihan, too. That is to say, I like hearing him talk. But I've yet to come away from any of his diavlogs thinking: "Wow, what an argument!" In fact, I couldn't tell you how he feels about much of anything policy-wise, only that he likes rap music.

And this is sad for me as I'm always on the lookout for smart righties to bolster my own feeble arguments. And he's reputedly on the right.

Or so I'm told.

Reihan's more of a bourgeois radical than a conservative. I like him too.

bjkeefe
03-21-2010, 04:35 PM
How can you tell? I like Reihan, too. That is to say, I like hearing him talk. But I've yet to come away from any of his diavlogs thinking: "Wow, what an argument!" In fact, I couldn't tell you how he feels about much of anything policy-wise, only that he likes rap music.

And this is sad for me as I'm always on the lookout for smart righties to bolster my own feeble arguments. And he's reputedly on the right.

Or so I'm told.

That's an interesting observation. I'd say in his defense that one reason it's hard to put him in a neat little box is that he in fact does not reside in any of the boxes that encompass standard conservative types; e.g., he is not a purist social conservative, he is not an ultra-free market/small government type, and so on. (He has said about himself that he is a neocon, or at least has neocon leanings, if I'm not mistaken.)

Going along with this, I think it makes for a useful conversation when he's talking to a smart liberal like Chris Hayes, because he often brings a different take on matters and/or can plausibly argue a different view on a given issue, and importantly, in ways different from the standard talking points you'd get from a lot of the other conservative diavloggers. I'd say that last is a feature, not a bug -- for me anyway, I come away from the conversation feeling as though I've spent some worthwhile time listening, even if I can't summarize some days later what was said in a few bullet points.

I do feel, however, that were I tasked with writing a paper arguing the case that Reihan is conservative, I could easily come up with a number of specifics by revisiting the diavlogs he's done.

popcorn_karate
03-21-2010, 05:14 PM
yeah...its not like she's written TWO BOOKS about people she "disagrees with."

http://www.kingdomcoming.com/

http://www.meansofreproduction.com/

jesus christ, get a clue. the one "lacking understanding" sure ain't MG.

I would not be surprised if she had plenty of valuable thoughts in her books ( have not read them). In DVs, however, she is generally unimpressive. when she argues for positions i agree with, i have on more than one occasion been embarrassed for her and desperately wished for somebody with better rhetorical skills to rebut some fairly ridiculous points made by her partners that she somehow is unable to make an effective argument against.