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View Full Version : Is Depression a manufactured diagnosis? Calling Ocean!!!


SkepticDoc
03-01-2010, 05:58 PM
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/3/1/gary_greenberg_manufacturing_depression_the_secret

http://www.amazon.com/Manufacturing-Depression-Secret-History-Disease/dp/1416569790/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267484238&sr=8-1

Sounds like an excellent topic for a real diavlog...

SkepticDoc
03-01-2010, 06:37 PM
Blame my sister and e-mails:

A minute read........

Read this story, and Follow the recommendation at the end....

As I was walking down life's highway many years ago

I came upon a sign that read:

Heavens Grocery Store.

When I got a little closer, the doors swung open wide, and when I came to myself, I was standing inside.

I saw a host of Angels, they were standing everywhere!

One handed me a basket and said 'My Child shop with care.'

Everything a Human needed was in that grocery store, and what you
could not carry, you could come back for more.

First, I got some Patience, Love was in that same row.

Further down was Understanding, you need that everywhere you go.

I got a box or two of Wisdom, and Faith, a bag or two.

And Charity, of course I would need some of that too.

I couldn't miss The Holy Ghost it was all over the place.

And then some Strength and Courage to help me run this race.

My basket was getting full, but I remembered I needed Grace, and then I chose Salvation for Salvation was for Free.

I tried to get enough of that to do for you and me.

Then I started walking to the counter to pay my grocery bill, for I thought I
had everything to do the Master's Will.

As I went up the aisle, I saw Prayer and put that in, for I knew that when I
stepped outside, I would run into Sin.

Peace and Joy, were plentiful, the last things on the shelf.

Song and Praise were hanging near, so I just helped myself.

Then I said to the angel: now how much do I owe?'

He smiled and said: just take them everywhere you go..'

Again I asked, really now, how much do I owe?'

'My child, he said, God paid your bill a long long time ago.'

This poem has been sent to you with love and for blessings.

It originated in The Netherlands, and has been around the world 9 times.

The blessing has now come to you and you will receive showers of blessings in the mail within six days of receiving this letter, providing you sent it out to someone else.

Do not keep this letter, but send it on to someone who needs blessings.

P.S. I am a closet agnostic Buddhist, my family does not know about my lack of belief.
Mindful Meditation is missing from the above...

Ocean
03-01-2010, 06:39 PM
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/3/1/gary_greenberg_manufacturing_depression_the_secret

http://www.amazon.com/Manufacturing-Depression-Secret-History-Disease/dp/1416569790/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267484238&sr=8-1

Sounds like an excellent topic for a real diavlog...

I just read the first couple of paragraphs of the transcript for your first link. So far, it sounds like the antipsychiatry conspiracy theory (Big Pharma and doctors making up diagnosis to make money, etc, etc.) Greenberg's comments about the investigators thought was going on, as described in the first paragraphs sounds like he doesn't know how these medication trials are done. But I would have to see if he explains it better later. Also this was a trial of fish oil vs placebo. These weren't antidepressants, and certainly not necessarily Big Pharma since fish oil can be manufactured by anyone as a dietary supplement.

I'll try to read or listen to the whole thing and report back.

Can you stop giving me more work?

SkepticDoc
03-01-2010, 06:43 PM
mea culpa!

Ocean
03-01-2010, 07:23 PM
mea culpa!

:) Si.

Ocean
03-01-2010, 08:29 PM
I finished reading the transcript from the first link. Because I like to find points of agreement I will grant that there are a couple of ideas here and there that I could agree with. The problem is that they get lost in the rest which in my opinion contains a lot of garbage. There's a lot of talk but little substance.

AemJeff
03-01-2010, 11:34 PM
Here's another (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/28/magazine/28depression-t.html), more hopeful, point of view.

SkepticDoc
03-02-2010, 07:44 AM
Speaking of Faith will have another live webcast with Cornell Psychiatrist, Andrew Solomon: http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/soflive/

BTW, Bob's edited interview will air this week.

Coming back to the topic of Depression and the broader topic of Human illness, there were some truths, half-truths and misinterpretations in the Democracy Now! interview. Stress, anxiety, grief, sadness and other "feelings" have always been with animals with some degree of consciousness.

Mr. Greenberg is a "Psychotherapist"- http://www.well.com/conf/inkwell.vue/topics/341/Gary-Greenberg-The-Noble-Lie-page01.html , his training was not geared towards prescribing chemical interventions. This brings us back to the "medical model of disease" and how we define illness. Less conscious animals have been known to eat fermented fruit (alcohol!) for nutrition and for the euphoric side effects(?), herbal products have been used for millenia to feel better or even try to "connect" with the "spirits" (please review John Horgan's diavlogs and articles). Even today, alcohol has been misused to "self medicate" (alcohol itself can be a source of grief and mental illness when abused).

Years ago, bromide salts were used for "sedation", from "Wikipedia":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromide

Bromide compounds, especially potassium bromide, were frequently used as sedatives in the 19th and early 20th century. This gave the word "bromide" its colloquial connotation of a boring cliché, a bit of conventional wisdom overused as a sedative.
The bromide ion is antiepileptic, and bromide salts are still used as such, particularly in veterinary medicine. The renal half-life of bromide in humans (12 days) is long compared with many pharamaceuticals, making dosing difficult to adjust (a new dose may require several months to reach equilibrium). Bromide ion concentrations in the cerebrospinal fluid are about 30% of those in blood, and are strongly influenced by the body's chloride intake and metabolism..[1]
Chronic toxicity from bromide can result in bromism, a syndrome with multiple neurological symptoms. Bromide toxicity can also cause a type of skin eruption. See potassium bromide.
Lithium bromide was used as a sedative beginning in the early 1900s, but it fell into disfavor in the 1940s when some heart patients died after using it as a salt substitute.[2] Like lithium carbonate and lithium chloride it was used as treatment for bipolar disorder.

Other chemicals have CNS effects like paraldehyde (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraldehyde). The evolution of psychochemistry was directed by safety and efficacy, barbiturates had a lower margin of safety and were replaced by benzodiazepines making Hoffman-LaRoche very wealthy from Valium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diazepam). The drugs were widely used because they worked! Just extrapolate to other chemicals, tricyclic antidepressants, MAOI were replaced by SSRIs because SSRIs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSRI) were safer.

We all are victims of efficiency, what is cheaper, to sit down and "talk" about your problems or to write down a prescription for a relatively safe chemical that will make you feel better within 2-6 weeks?

A more serious question is, what is better for Society? My bias is that a combination of individual interaction, societal support systems and chemicals(drugs) is the best option at this time

Ocean
03-02-2010, 07:31 PM
A more serious question is, what is better for Society? My bias is that a combination of individual interaction, societal support systems and chemicals(drugs) is the best option at this time

I agree with that. This topic was extensively discussed in recent months in this forum.

SkepticDoc
03-03-2010, 02:42 PM
Steven Novella is on your side!

http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=168

http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1680

SkepticDoc
04-12-2010, 03:51 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/12/science/12psychedelics.html?hpw

I am just wondering what is Mr Horgan's opinion on this piece, and I hope our dear friend Ocean will share her judgment on psychoactive chemicals.

I am trying to understand the consequences and medical implications when marijuana is legalized across the nation, I am confident that the FSM will not allow widespread use of psychedelics (except as part of a worship service?).

Ocean
04-12-2010, 06:44 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/12/science/12psychedelics.html?hpw

I am just wondering what is Mr Horgan's opinion on this piece, and I hope our dear friend Ocean will share her judgment on psychoactive chemicals.

Well, my dear friend SkepticDoc, I don't know anything about these studies and don't know all that much about psychedelics. It looks like the study is based on the administration of psilocybin, placebo or other psychoactive substances, including stimulants, in a well monitored medical setting. Their report is favorable with anecdotal good results. I'm not sure what the eligibility criteria is for the study, what exactly they are treating. They mention depression and cancer but there are no details. It's interesting that they seem to emphasize the mystic-like experience as central to the changes. I'll see if I can find out more.

I am trying to understand the consequences and medical implications when marijuana is legalized across the nation, I am confident that the FSM will not allow widespread use of psychedelics (except as part of a worship service?).

What do you think the consequences will be from legalization of marijuana? A spaced out population? Just kidding, what's being discussed out there?

In terms of psychedelics, it looks that the studies are about medical applications, not worship.

SkepticDoc
04-12-2010, 07:30 PM
The FSM can command E. coli! (http://www.voigtlab.ucsf.edu/)

Don't the Rastrafarians smoke ganja as a form of worship?

uncle ebeneezer
04-13-2010, 02:18 PM
Interesting article. SD, you should check out Rational Mysticism, where Horgan does an entire book on this subject.

Having don psilocybin a handful of times I can say that the reported results mentioned in the article largely match my own. Environment makes a huge effect (tripping in a scary situation would suck) but in a comfortable setting with people you like, it is a hugely profound and positive experience that very much gets you to that "waterfall" place that Ocean mentioned in the other thread. Only instead of having to sit quietly and turn your mind off, this state becomes default setting while you can be physically active (hiking, listening to music, being social) all the while experience that same sense of connectedness with nature/the whole etc. This is probably why they are so often used in worship. In addition to a general feeling of euphoria (like cannabis) it also promotes very deep thought/spiritual pondering. And it definitely causes a feeling of connection with other humans, animals, flora etc.

I can definitely see how they would help someone battling depression or a life-threatening illness. They change your view of the world and help to get you to a place similar to Buddhist meditation by giving the ingestor a perspective that lessens the importance of our ego and at least in my case made my own physical status (mortality) seem far less important.

listener
04-13-2010, 02:54 PM
Interesting article. SD, you should check out Rational Mysticism, where Horgan does an entire book on this subject.

Having don psilocybin a handful of times I can say that the reported results mentioned in the article largely match my own. Environment makes a huge effect (tripping in a scary situation would suck) but in a comfortable setting with people you like, it is a hugely profound and positive experience that very much gets you to that "waterfall" place that Ocean mentioned in the other thread. Only instead of having to sit quietly and turn your mind off, this state becomes default setting while you can be physically active (hiking, listening to music, being social) all the while experience that same sense of connectedness with nature/the whole etc. This is probably why they are so often used in worship. In addition to a general feeling of euphoria (like cannabis) it also promotes very deep thought/spiritual pondering. And it definitely causes a feeling of connection with other humans, animals, flora etc.

I can definitely see how they would help someone battling depression or a life-threatening illness. They change your view of the world and help to get you to a place similar to Buddhist meditation by giving the ingestor a perspective that lessens the importance of our ego and at least in my case made my own physical status (mortality) seem far less important.

I too have had experiences with psilocybin, and I think that you described your experiences very accurately in relation to my own. I have also noticed that the sense of deep connection that you describe has resulted in the feeling of having been given a larger perspective that has made my own mortality appear to be not so important or frightening.

Ocean
04-13-2010, 03:02 PM
I have never used hallucinogens, but if I take your comment below into account, I can see why different people may have diverse reactions. The one and only time that I tried cannabis, was a rather unpleasant experience. Brain chemistry is very peculiar.

In addition to a general feeling of euphoria (like cannabis) it also promotes very deep thought/spiritual pondering.

uncle ebeneezer
04-13-2010, 03:12 PM
Very true. And emotional reactions to a particular state vary as well. Hallucinogens can foster a very overwhelming experience which can be frightening to some and exhilarating to others (like a roller-coaster.) I would guess that there are people who might have a negative opinion of the waterfall/no-boundaries type of experience too. Mystical-esque experiences seem to be pretty intense for good or ill. I will say that in my experiences with lots of people who have done lots of drugs, bad experiences on cannabis seem much more common than bad experiences on mushrooms (though obviously far more people try the former so it could just be a numbers game.)

[added: it was in fact, these very intense and almost otherworldly psilocybin experiences that led me to the 3-d glasses/filter perspective of reality that I mentioned in the "lunatics" thread.]

listener
04-14-2010, 01:06 AM
Very true. And emotional reactions to a particular state vary as well. Hallucinogens can foster a very overwhelming experience which can be frightening to some and exhilarating to others (like a roller-coaster.) I would guess that there are people who might have a negative opinion of the waterfall/no-boundaries type of experience too. Mystical-esque experiences seem to be pretty intense for good or ill. I will say that in my experiences with lots of people who have done lots of drugs, bad experiences on cannabis seem much more common than bad experiences on mushrooms (though obviously far more people try the former so it could just be a numbers game.)

[added: it was in fact, these very intense and almost otherworldly psilocybin experiences that led me to the 3-d glasses/filter perspective of reality that I mentioned in the "lunatics" thread.

I think what you are talking about here is definitely germane to the "lunatics" thread topics!

I think the parallels you draw between the psilocybin experience and the "waterfall" experience are apt to an extent. Depending upon the personalities involved, both have the potential to be frightening in their disorienting effect in relation to our accustomed, "normal" dualistic way of experiencing ourselves. I do think because drugs typically present much more surfacely dramatic effects, and because those effects are drug-induced rather than self-induced, one has less of an ability to escape from them. Therefore I think the drug experience has a greater potential to be frightening and disorienting.

My own experience is that although taking those drugs was indeed a "mystical" experience that opened up new ways of experiencing myself in relation to the world, once the experience was over I was back to my "normal" self and nothing had fundamentally changed. Yes, it had been a powerful experience in which I had glimpsed another possibility, but as with all drugs, there's an inevitable pattern in which one needs more and more of the drug to achieve the same effect, and the ability of the drug to produce the desired effect inevitably diminishes. This is as true of psychedelics as it is of alcohol or any other drug. So at best, I think that drugs can act as a potentially valuable (though also potentially destructive) "pointer."

So the question became for me, now that I have had this glimpse of the sensation of oneness (and the accompanying diminished fear of death, as you mentioned -- and I think SkepticDoc was also talking about this in his diavlog with Alworth (http://apollo.bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/24070?in=04:10&out=04:32)), is there a way that I can expand upon it without being dependent on a drug for it (and all of the inevitable attendant harmful side effects)? I have found that states of intensive awareness (what some would call meditation) have brought me to similar (I would say deeper but less spectacular) states of mind. It is a lot more work than taking a drug (something I haven't done in decades), and I confess that I've gone through long periods of my life not doing that work. But still, I do think that having had those experiences (both drug-induced and not) have indeed expanded my outlook and changed the way I interact with others in a positive way, whether or not I have been able to be as diligent as I would like in cultivating this greater awareness.

- - -

Added: Of course, if the "goal" of intensive awareness or meditation or whatever one calls it becomes the attainment of some transcendental feeling of "unity" or "nonduality," then one is pretty much back in the "drug" loop, in which one is looking for something (now a method or practice rather than a drug) to recapture or attain that feeling, which turns meditation (or whatever one calls it) into just another attempt to escape into something that one perceives as more pleasant or desirable.

(In which case you might as well just take drugs -- it's easier.)

Ocean
04-14-2010, 07:32 AM
Added: Of course, if the "goal" of intensive awareness or meditation or whatever one calls it becomes the attainment of some transcendental feeling of "unity" or "nonduality," then one is pretty much back in the "drug" loop, in which one is looking for something (now a method or practice rather than a drug) to recapture or attain that feeling, which turns meditation (or whatever one calls it) into just another attempt to escape into something that one perceives as more pleasant or desirable.

(In which case you might as well just take drugs -- it's easier.)

Interesting post. I especially would like to emphasize the above paragraph for those who are interested in the topic. Very often, when I hear people talk about meditation and the psychological states that it may induce, it seems like the main "attraction" to this practice is to obtain those pleasant feelings of unity, or the imagery that could appear in some of the phases of meditation. When that is the main goal, it is in my opinion, just another way of experimenting, escapism, entertainment or simply momentary pleasure seeking activity. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, but it should be understood for what it is. A pleasurable self-induced intoxication.

It is very different from the kind of experience that can have an effect in how we experience life, our relationship to others, and the overall perception and understanding of the world on a more or less permanent basis.

graz
04-14-2010, 10:24 AM
Interesting post. I especially would like to emphasize the above paragraph for those who are interested in the topic. Very often, when I hear people talk about meditation and the psychological states that it may induce, it seems like the main "attraction" to this practice is to obtain those pleasant feelings of unity, or the imagery that could appear in some of the phases of meditation. When that is the main goal, it is in my opinion, just another way of experimenting, escapism, entertainment or simply momentary pleasure seeking activity. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, but it should be understood for what it is. A pleasurable self-induced intoxication.


It is very different from the kind of experience that can have an effect in how we experience life, our relationship to others, and the overall perception and understanding of the world on a more or less permanent basis.

What else is it if not "a kind of experience?"

What examples do you value greater and why?

Isn't it like the medicating of schizophrenics so as to allow them to experience a baseline semblance of normal perception and understanding?

Ocean
04-14-2010, 10:35 AM
What else is it if not "a kind of experience?"

I'm not sure what you're asking, but what I'm talking about is that there may be two kinds of experiences. One may be pleasant, calming and enjoyable while it lasts. The other kind may lead to deeper insights that trigger a more radical change in your perspective about life and others. It may even change your understanding and your emotional life and behavior. Don't ask me how that works, because I don't know.

What examples do you value greater and why?

I value the second kind more because of the more radical change that it may trigger.

Isn't it like the medicating of schizophrenics so as to allow them to experience a baseline semblance of normal perception and understanding?

I'm not sure I understand this. Perhaps you can expand.

graz
04-14-2010, 10:46 AM
I'm not sure what you're asking, but what I'm talking about is that there may be two kinds of experiences. One may be pleasant, calming and enjoyable while it lasts. The other kind may lead to deeper insights that trigger a more radical change in your perspective about life and others. It may even change your understanding and your emotional life and behavior. Don't ask me how that works, because I don't know.

How are you certain that the meditation (or drugs) isn't the other or second type? Many swear by the life altering and lasting effects such experiences had.

Ocean
04-14-2010, 10:52 AM
How are you certain that the meditation (or drugs) isn't the other or second type? Many swear by the life altering and lasting effects such experiences had.

All I'm saying is that meditation is perhaps more likely than drugs to trigger the second type. But, I really don't know that's the case.

I'm also saying that any of those (meditation or drugs) can fail to provide the long lasting effects, and only be pleasant at the moment when they're being experienced.

graz
04-14-2010, 11:02 AM
Thanks. But I'm still curious about the idea of long lasting effects. I don't see why we shouldn't include such experiences as part of a cumulative and formative influence on behavior and baseline functionality.

Ocean
04-14-2010, 11:05 AM
Thanks. But I'm still curious about the idea of long lasting effects. I don't see why we shouldn't include such experiences as part of a cumulative and formative influence on behavior and baseline functionality.

I don't know. You may be right. We need to ask some expert on this. I'm not one.

uncle ebeneezer
04-14-2010, 11:55 AM
Great post Listener. I agree with you. Strong hallucinogens are not the type of thing one should do every day (I can't imagine that would be healthy.) I would make a couple points/distinctions. 1.) while alcohol or cannabis etc. change your perspective slightly, I would not compare them to hallucinogens. The intensity of the experience for shrooms, acid etc. is so great that they totally change the way you see the world (in Ocen's terms I would say that they are definitely the second type of life-changing experience). Even after they wear off (which is admittedly a welcome thing, it's nice coming back to "normal" after such an intense and sometimes disorienting experience) I found that there was still a positive memory that lingers afterward. 2.) Like you I've found that meditation, playing music, getting into the flow of a really great tennis rally etc. all give me brief excursions back to a similar (though slightly different) state in a much healthier/productive/reliable way. Much like a person of faith learns to try to find that connection with God when they are outside church walls, or a Buddhist tries to achieve their meditative state while walking or in everyday life, I believe that one can try to achieve the positive feelings that are experienced during a trip through other avenues.

Graz, as far as long term effects go, I know Horgan has cited some studies that claim that people who had taken psilocybin had reported higher levels of long-term happiness. I can't vouch for the strength of said study, but I can only say that the urban myth about the people who take a hallucinogen and have a freak out and have their lives ruined, has never been something I have encountered. The few people I knew who ever had bad trips were almost always: A.) people who were very high-strung, tentative or with a very strong need to always be "in control" (precisely the kind of people I would suggest NOT try hallucinogens), or B.) people who took hallucinogens in a really negative/risky/scary setting that would not be the type of atmosphere I would recommend (or took them in a positive setting but something happened that changed the environment to a negative one.)

Ocean
04-14-2010, 12:09 PM
Uncle, I don't know what others are talking about here, but reading your post, it's clear that you and I are not talking about the same. So when you refer back to me as having said something, I will ask you not to, since you are talking about something different.

You keep mentioning feelings of happiness, positive memory that lingers afterwords. When I refer to lasting effects or changes, they are not about being able to evoke pleasant feelings. Sorry for my insistence, but the more you write, the more I realize we're talking about something different. It's difficult to articulate what I mean. Perhaps some other time.

popcorn_karate
04-14-2010, 12:11 PM
I don't know. You may be right. We need to ask some expert on this. I'm not one.

neither am I, but i'll offer my opinion regardless.

it all comes down to intention. If you seek psychic states (through drugs/meditation/activities) for only the purpose of experiencing those states, then that is what you get out of it.

If you seek those states with the intention of learning something about yourself and the universe, then generally, it can't help but change somewhat the way you approach life.

But our habits in many ways define and limit us. the ability to change a habit - whether it is watching TV, drinking alcohol, or viewing the world in a certain way - takes an immense amount of energy. That is where a drug experience can be extremely beneficial, but also useless. It takes you far outside of your current perspective which is likely to be a very informational and inspiring experience, but it also drains your energy thus making it less likely that you will be able to act on the knowledge obtained to change your life.

I think the traditional ways of having these experiences - with guides and support, make it more likely that you can achieve some change in your lived experience rather than an oddity that changes little about your life except that you now seek more of those experiences.

Ocean
04-14-2010, 12:30 PM
neither am I, but i'll offer my opinion regardless.

it all comes down to intention. If you seek psychic states (through drugs/meditation/activities) for only the purpose of experiencing those states, then that is what you get out of it.

If you seek those states with the intention of learning something about yourself and the universe, then generally, it can't help but change somewhat the way you approach life.

But our habits in many ways define and limit us. the ability to change a habit - whether it is watching TV, drinking alcohol, or viewing the world in a certain way - takes an immense amount of energy. That is where a drug experience can be extremely beneficial, but also useless. It takes you far outside of your current perspective which is likely to be a very informational and inspiring experience, but it also drains your energy thus making it less likely that you will be able to act on the knowledge obtained to change your life.

I think the traditional ways of having these experiences - with guides and support, make it more likely that you can achieve some change in your lived experience rather than an oddity that changes little about your life except that you now seek more of those experiences.

Yes, for the little I know I agree with the above completely. I would like to say that the above experiences may occur spontaneously (not through meditation or drugs), be intense, and trigger a sequence of other spontaneous, sudden, intense changes. Unfortunately there are many bizarre, new agey, fringe descriptions of similar stuff, and it's difficult to find legitimate studies of this kind of experience. It's also interesting how it's absent from textbooks in psychiatry or psychology. The few times I've found something described it's being interpreted as some kind of religious/ spiritual experience because many people that experience it interpret it that way. Interesting, isn't it?

listener
04-14-2010, 12:41 PM
Interesting post. I especially would like to emphasize the above paragraph for those who are interested in the topic. Very often, when I hear people talk about meditation and the psychological states that it may induce, it seems like the main "attraction" to this practice is to obtain those pleasant feelings of unity, or the imagery that could appear in some of the phases of meditation. When that is the main goal, it is in my opinion, just another way of experimenting, escapism, entertainment or simply momentary pleasure seeking activity. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, but it should be understood for what it is. A pleasurable self-induced intoxication.

It is very different from the kind of experience that can have an effect in how we experience life, our relationship to others, and the overall perception and understanding of the world on a more or less permanent basis.

I knew you would get that part, Ocean! :)

Thanks for noticing it and for emphasizing that point -- it is an important one.

uncle ebeneezer
04-14-2010, 01:54 PM
It is very different from the kind of experience that can have an effect in how we experience life, our relationship to others, and the overall perception and understanding of the world on a more or less permanent basis.

To play devil's advocate: But don't some people claim that this is precisely the effect that a drug or mystical experience had on them?

Although I think I agree with you guys on the distinction on the scale of impact on life (ie- hallucinogens changed my perspectives on life but from a sensory level there was not a noticeable difference before/after, in the way that I would imagine a person with a mental disorder experiences by going on the proper meds.)

Ocean
04-14-2010, 02:08 PM
To play devil's advocate: But don't some people claim that this is precisely the effect that a drug or mystical experience had on them?

Although I think I agree with you guys on the distinction on the scale of impact on life (ie- hallucinogens changed my perspectives on life but from a sensory level there was not a noticeable difference before/after, in the way that I would imagine a person with a mental disorder experiences by going on the proper meds.)

A person with a mental disorder going on meds has nothing to do with this experience. How did we get to that analogy? Was that graz's example?

We are not talking about sensory differences either. Some people experience subtle sensory/perceptual differences after hallucinogens, and perhaps after meditative practices.

But those are not the interesting aspects that people may experience. It's about changing their views, moral perspective, compassion, and even personal habits (food preferences, sleep patterns, desinterest in material possessions). There are many descriptions of similar changes. Have heard or read about any of those?