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uncle ebeneezer
02-15-2010, 12:20 PM
Good news for Healthcare? Looks like the White House/Dems are finally learning how to force the Republican's bluff on all their ideas for reform. Ezra here (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/02/democrats_released_a_compromis.html). The Jon Cohn and Steve Benen links are also worth reading.

claymisher
02-15-2010, 01:31 PM
Good news for Healthcare? Looks like the White House/Dems are finally learning how to force the Republican's bluff on all their ideas for reform. Ezra here (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/02/democrats_released_a_compromis.html). The Jon Cohn and Steve Benen links are also worth reading.

I wish somebody had kept a list of all the people who pronounced HCR dead because if it passes I'd like to remind all of them that they were wrong.

uncle ebeneezer
02-15-2010, 04:25 PM
If HCR finally becomes a reality, that is an I-told-you-so that I won't mind announcing to all of my Dem friends who were SO eager to raise the white flag a few weeks ago.

Wonderment
02-16-2010, 12:01 AM
If HCR finally becomes a reality, that is an I-told-you-so that I won't mind announcing to all of my Dem friends who were SO eager to raise the white flag a few weeks ago.

Eb, the only people raising the white flag are Democratic Congress members.

When you have them demonstrating the requisite political courage to pass HCR, let me know, and I will be happy to eat all the crow you desire.

In the meantime, the Dems. are a train wreck, Obama is a disappointing leader, Bushian perpetual war and occupation continues unabated, and change ain't happening.

Don't blame your friends.

uncle ebeneezer
02-16-2010, 11:47 AM
Wonder, my problem is with both civilians AND Dem elected officials. Both have been too quick to concede thet HCR is "dead" when it's not. This woe-is-me attitude by many on the Left, is not helpfull considering that the game is not over yet. It's a wishy-washy, defeatist attitude that cripples the ability to pass good (albeit imperfect) legislation, and it reinforces every no-backbone claim that the GOP has been labeling the Left with for years. What's saddest is the quickness with which so many want to blame Obama. I still have yet to see an alternate history, given the political landscape, the self interests of congress, pharma, insurance etc., the loss of Ted Kennedy etc. that argues convincingly for how HCR could have gotten through more easily or in a more progressive form. If you're aware of some magic bullet theory out there that is convincing, by all means let me know. But most of the people who seem to have the strongest grasp on healthcare and the legislative process (Ezra, Mark Schmitt, John Cohn etc.) seem to be rather impressed that two HCR bills have successfully passed the House and Senate and are within spitting distance of the finish line. The biggest difference at this point is that some people want to keep pushing through and some want to gripe about how much further there is to go and point fingers of blame. Are there things Obama could have done better? Certainly. Is it obvious what he should have done? No. Is it obvious that doing X or Y would have reuslted in swift passage of HCR? I don't think so. Either way, it ain't over yet. When HCR officially dies, we can haggle about where it went wrong but for the time being I think there's more important things to do, like try to keep it alive.

claymisher
02-18-2010, 01:19 PM
EK:

What Greg Sargent is hearing tracks roughly with what I'm hearing: The House and Senate are nearing a compromise bill that the president can present at the Blair House Summit. That compromise looks a lot like we expected it to look: Nationally regulated exchanges, a deal on the excise tax, somewhat better subsidies and so forth. The question is simply whether the summit will give Democrats the courage to move forward. Or whether the Democratic leadership can convince its members that not moving forward is actually scarier:

Senate Dem leaders are warming to the use of “reconciliation” to fix their bill after the summit, a senior Senate aide says.

“We’re getting closer,” the Senate aide says of reconciliation, adding that the leadership is more likely to pursue that course if the summit doesn’t yield any kind of compromise with Republicans, as expected. “People want to get rid of health care. They want it off the agenda. The simplest answer is that reconciliation may be the most expedient way to do it.”

That's an important point: Pass health-care reform and it moves off the Senate's everyday agenda, which also means it moves out of the daily news cycles. Continue to let it linger and it will haunt Democrats right up until Election Day.

I'll also note that I'm detecting more confidence among Hill aides lately. They sound a lot less down and a lot less uncertain than they did a few weeks ago. The prevailing view is that everybody realizes they have to pass something, and though passing something will be hard, most are willing to bet that it will happen.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/02/the_state_of_health-care_refor_1.html

bjkeefe
02-20-2010, 11:15 PM
PK, today (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/20/health-care-game-on/):

Health Care: Game On

Well, this certainly sounds like it’s a go (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/weekly-address-president-obama-says-it-time-move-forward-health-care-reform). That’s the style, Mr. President!

If this works out — I’d think the odds now are that it will, though it’s by no means a done deal — there will be endless debate about whether Anthem Blue Cross was wot did it. My sense is that a final push was always available, as long as the White House was willing to take a stand; Anthem may just have helped provide an occasion.

Extra dividend: Jonathan Chait is right (http://www.tnr.com/blog/jonathan-chait/the-coming-conservative-health-care-freakout), conservatives will freak out. They’ve already been celebrating the defeat of HCR, failing to notice that Democrats have actually passed a bill in both houses, and still have a huge majority. And there will be cries of foul play — how dare Democrats actually follow the Constitution!

And if health care passes, and job numbers turn positive, November may be very different from what the Tea Party expects.

Ocean
02-20-2010, 11:24 PM
We're waiting and hopeful.

bjkeefe
02-20-2010, 11:29 PM
We're waiting and hopeful.

The thing that I find especially encouraging here is that Krugman is not exactly known for his optimism, especially regarding the current crop of Dems.

uncle ebeneezer
02-21-2010, 12:18 AM
More signs for hope (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/02/reid_democrats_will_use_reconc.html).

bjkeefe
02-21-2010, 12:42 AM
More signs for hope (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/02/reid_democrats_will_use_reconc.html).

That is good news. Let us hope ol' Harry isn't just floating a trial balloon.

But meantime, thanks for passing this along.

claymisher
02-21-2010, 01:22 AM
The Republicans stopped HCR on 2nd and goal. Good for them! Chait:

You can imagine how this feels to conservatives. They've already run off the field, sprayed themselves with champagne and taunted the losing team's fans. And now the other team is saying the game is still on and they have a good chance to win. There may be nothing wrong at all with the process, but it's certainly going to feel like some kind of crime to the right-wing. The Democrats may not win, but I'm pretty sure they're going to try. The conservative freakout is going to be something to behold.


Wee!

claymisher
03-03-2010, 04:23 PM
If HCR is really dead this guy don't know it yet.

http://www.dailykos.com/tv/w/002596/

bjkeefe
03-03-2010, 04:52 PM
If HCR is really dead this guy don't know it yet.

http://www.dailykos.com/tv/w/002596/

Excellent subject line!

And thanks for the link. That was an inspiring thing to watch.

bjkeefe
03-06-2010, 02:12 AM
Always look on the dark side! (http://nomoremister.blogspot.com/2010/03/what-if-its-and-not-eitheror-rick-klein.html)

I've come around to the notion that Democrats' best hope is to pass health care reform -- not because I believe that voters will magically warm to HCR once it's signed into law (actual beneficiaries of the few provisions that kick in early might have that reaction, but flagrantly dishonest GOP messaging will still dominate with regard to the rest of the bill). No -- the reason passing HCR might help the Democrats is that the GOP and right-wing crazies will go stark raving mad (or I should say even more stark raving mad) when and if this happens; the demonstrations are going to get more extreme, the signage is going to be even more threatening, there'll be calls for impeachment (and probably for a coup, and I mean that literally), and there'll probably be an uptick in at least attempted violence -- if HCR passes, security at all federal buildings should be beefed up immediately). Assuming (as I do) that the economy doesn't magically start generating jobs, this is really the Democrats' only hope going into November: the fact that they won't seem to be the party of anarchy and chaos.

claymisher
03-06-2010, 12:46 PM
I see that McCain is trying to get Medicare exempted from the Byrd rule (http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2010/03/mccain-proposes-exempting-medicare-from-reconciliation.php). One of the reasons why I think any bill is better than no bill is seeing the Republicans right now fighting to preserve Medicare. Once universal coverage is established they're never going to be able to get rid of it.

bjkeefe
03-07-2010, 12:45 PM
Today's NYT has a very nice graphic (http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2010/03/07/opinion/07opedchart_graphic.html) on the history of the reconciliation process. Accompanying text, in which the above is linked in the sidebar, here (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/opinion/07mann.html).

claymisher
03-10-2010, 08:13 PM
The state-based single payer strategy

"Quite frankly," Sen. Bernie Sanders said today, "we don't have the votes for single payer." That's not much of a surprise, but Sanders did outline another strategy for single payer that some liberals might want to think about. "Right now," he explained, "we have language in the bill that says that states that want to go forward with single payer can do that." He's talking about the Waiver for State Innovation, which allows states to go their own way if they have a plan that will achieve the goals of the bill at a lower cost. You could imagine a state -- say, California, where the legislature has passed single-payer bills before only to see them vetoed by the governor -- using that provision to implement a single-payer system.

Sanders thought this the best strategy going forward. "I believe the way we move to single payer in this country is to let one state like California go first," he said. And before some of my conservative readers decide this is a liberal trapdoor in the middle of the bill, the provision could be used to develop a much more conservative approach to universal health care. In fact, it's a legislative expression of the GOP's third plank for health-care reform: "Give states the tools to create their own innovative reforms that lower health-care costs."

The health-care reform bill will create a basic, near-universal system across the country. If individual states think they can do better, they're welcome to try. And if they succeed, you could imagine those reforms spreading quickly to other states, too.


http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/03/the_state-based_single_payer_s.html

bjkeefe
03-11-2010, 04:07 PM
... "Commies, Nancies Seeing Momentum (http://wonkette.com/414180/commies-nancies-seeing-momentum)."

uncle ebeneezer
03-11-2010, 11:12 PM
Best comment:
Troubledog says at 3:52 pm, March 11th, 2010
This is simply a conspiracy to make the graph data look like a Jesus fish.

bjkeefe
03-12-2010, 12:56 AM
Best comment:

ROFL!

claymisher
03-12-2010, 06:38 PM
It's not a comeback because it was never dead.

More good news:

SEIU Warns Dems: If You Don’t Back Reform, We Won’t Back You

Hardball time.

In what seems intended as a shot across the bow of House Dems wavering on health reform, top officials with the labor powerhouse SEIU have bluntly told a Democratic member that they will pull their support for him — and will likely field a challenger against him — if he votes No on the Senate bill.

Dem Rep Mike McMahon of New York met yesterday with a top SEIU official and told him he’s likely to vote No, the official tells me. The official: Mike Fishman, president of SEIU 32bj, the largest property workers union in the country, with 120,000 members in eight states.

Fishman told McMahon that the union would not support him if he voted No — and suggested the hunt for a primary or third-party challenger would follow.

“He let us know he’s not supportive of the health care plan,” Fishman says. “We’ve let him know that we can’t support somebody who doesn’t support it.”

“We are going to begin talking to other unions about finding someone else for that seat,” Fishman continued.
...

“We put an enormous amount of effort into electing Democrats,” Fishman said. “This is the most important issue on everyone’s plate. We’re sending a message to Democrats: If you can’t support this, we can’t support you.”


http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/labor/big-union-warns-dems-if-you-dont-back-reform-we-wont-back-you/

claymisher
03-16-2010, 11:01 PM
Jane Hamsher asked her readers to raise money for Dennis Kucinich because he was working to kill HCR. Today he came out for it. So she wants people to ask for their money back (http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2010/03/16/fineman-reports-kucinich-to-vote-yes/). Oh, firebaggers!

bjkeefe
03-16-2010, 11:39 PM
Jane Hamsher asked her readers to raise money for Dennis Kucinich because he was working to kill HCR. Today he came out for it. So she wants people to ask for their money back (http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2010/03/16/fineman-reports-kucinich-to-vote-yes/). Oh, firebaggers!

She's been on a tear lately. Did you hear about this (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/16/jane-says/)?

(Follow-up from Weigel here (http://washingtonindependent.com/79427/a-quick-response-to-jane-hamsher), more from Balloon Juice here (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/16/and-yes-i-will-pile-on/), if not.)

P.S. I just followed your link and oddly enough, Jane still has the link to donate to Kucinich up on that post. The contributions appear to have gone up by $4000 since she posted. Hee hee!

I really can't believe she's using the term "union theggery," though. Sounds like she's spent just a little bit too much time trying to make common cause with the teabaggers.

Wonderment
03-17-2010, 03:25 AM
Jane Hamsher asked her readers to raise money for Dennis Kucinich because he was working to kill HCR. Today he came out for it.

Hasn't come out for it yet. He has a press conference scheduled for 10 a.m today, 3/17.

Since, unlike 90% of the Democratic Congressional Delegation, Dennis is not a lying, opportunistic hypocrite, I expect him to say something honest and sensible.

I'm sure a few "progressives" here will be disappointed if he votes Yes on HCR, since you won't have a new Ralph Nader to blame for all that sucks in US politics.

JonIrenicus
03-17-2010, 04:50 AM
I wish somebody had kept a list of all the people who pronounced HCR dead because if it passes I'd like to remind all of them that they were wrong.

I voiced skepticism that democrats would let it die, I thought they would move before Brown was seated, so was wrong on that, but the idea that they would just shrivel and shrink into a cave, after all the damage caused to them by pushing so far seemed bizarre to me.


It goes against basic human nature, same reason people hold onto losing stocks longer than stocks that rise. Selling after a loss feels worse so damn it all, screw consequences in later elections, let's at least strike the health care blow if we must die in 2010. Die with a smile, not resentment, die with the knowledge that it was not all in vain, they got SOMETHING for their loss.


Basic wargaming seems to suggest that even if republicans took both houses, they would not have enough seats in the senate to completely repeal the legislation and overturn the presidents veto.


That is the good news, but guys, if it turns out to be the case, as many of us believe, that costs will rise sharply because of this legislation, you WILL pay, long term. Say whatever else you want to say, hcr was NOT the prime issue people cared about most, it was the prime issue liberals cared about most.

If I were a liberal, I would fear the costs more than anything else. As it stands, the middle class, the elderly, and children are already covered by some form of insurance for the most part. The benefactors are there, but much of the gain in coverage will be from a constituency you have locked down in unthinking loyalty already.

But what do I know, all guesses. We'll see.

Ocean
03-17-2010, 07:31 AM
Hasn't come out for it yet. He has a press conference scheduled for 10 a.m today, 3/17.

Since, unlike 90% of the Democratic Congressional Delegation, Dennis is not a lying, opportunistic hypocrite, I expect him to say something honest and sensible.

I'm sure a few "progressives" here will be disappointed if he votes Yes on HCR, since you won't have a new Ralph Nader to blame for all that sucks in US politics.

It seems like some people are committed to maintaining the vision of a much better future alive, keep pushing and reminding others what that ultimate goal is. However, in the meantime, people live, suffer and die while waiting. So it turns out, that there are others who have chosen to make sure that the conditions under which those people live while they wait, aren't as miserable as they would be if nothing was done.

Let's respect each role and not make the mistake of sabotaging each other, which would in turn cause even more unnecessary suffering. I think.

bjkeefe
03-17-2010, 08:30 AM
It seems like some people are committed to maintaining the vision of a much better future alive, keep pushing and reminding others what that ultimate goal is. However, in the meantime, people live, suffer and die while waiting. So it turns out, that there are others who have chosen to make sure that the conditions under which those people live while they wait, aren't as miserable as they would be if nothing was done.

Let's respect each role and not make the mistake of sabotaging each other, which would in turn cause even more unnecessary suffering. I think.

TBogg agrees (http://tbogg.firedoglake.com/2010/03/16/the-return-of-this-is-why-you-cant-have-nice-things/) with you.

(Me, too.)

uncle ebeneezer
03-17-2010, 01:11 PM
More likely we'll be happy that he's finally helping his party get something important done rather than standing in the way.

TwinSwords
03-17-2010, 03:03 PM
Eb, the only people raising the white flag are Democratic Congress members.

When you have them demonstrating the requisite political courage to pass HCR, let me know, and I will be happy to eat all the crow you desire.

Hey, Wonderment, check it out (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=154627#post154627)!

Bet you're glad to see that Kucinich has put down the white flag and has found the requisite political courage to help pass health care reform.

Wonderment
03-17-2010, 03:26 PM
It seems like some people are committed to maintaining the vision of a much better future alive, keep pushing and reminding others what that ultimate goal is. However, in the meantime, people live, suffer and die while waiting. So it turns out, that there are others who have chosen to make sure that the conditions under which those people live while they wait, aren't as miserable as they would be if nothing was done.


Dennis Kucinich supported Obama's HCR for all the right reasons (as stated today at his press conference): 1) It's better than nothing; 2) Opposing it puts the whole Obama administration at risk of massive failure:

“We have to be very careful that the potential of President Obama’s presidency not be destroyed by this debate.’’

Mr. Kucinich said he would vote for the Senate bill even though he believed it was seriously flawed.

“Something is better than nothing — that’s what I keep hearing from my constituents,’’ Mr. Kucinich said.

This is basically the position that everyone on the progressive left has held since Obama floated his plan during the campaign. Nevertheless, we have been vilified and ridiculed by centrists and moderates in the party (and on this board).

It's been crystal clear all along that if the bill failed it would be the fault of Republicans, Blue Dog Democrats, anti-immigrant xenophobes and anti-abortion Catholics and fundie Protestants. Thus, it's been astonishing to watch visionaries and honest politicians like Kucinich get scapegoated.

uncle ebeneezer
03-17-2010, 04:13 PM
I applaud the hardcore progressives for trying to use their power to get a better bill but at the end of the day I think many of them don't want to face up to the reality of what failure could mean (a failure in which they would be just as complicit as the GOP). MY (http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2010/03/kucinich-will-vote-yes.php) put's it nicely:

Compared to the health care system I would like to see, this bill doesn’t cover enough people, doesn’t do enough to control costs, doesn’t do enough to emphasize prevention and public health, and is too soft on the health care industry. But relative to the status quo, this bill covers a lot of people, helps to control costs, emphasizing prevention and public health, and reigns in the health care industry. The reasons to be disappointed with this bill are all reasons to be disappointed with the status quo, and the disappointing nature of the status quo is a reason to be enthusiastic about this bill. What’s more, if the bill passes you can pass more bills in the future! If it fails, politicians won’t want to touch health care again for decades.

The firebaggers choose to jeopardize HCR's chances (for noble intentions) but can't seem to handle it when critics correctly note the potentially disastrous results of that choice.

Ocean
03-17-2010, 06:03 PM
Dennis Kucinich supported Obama's HCR for all the right reasons (as stated today at his press conference): 1) It's better than nothing; 2) Opposing it puts the whole Obama administration at risk of massive failure:


This is basically the position that everyone on the progressive left has held since Obama floated his plan during the campaign. Nevertheless, we have been vilified and ridiculed by centrists and moderates in the party (and on this board).

It's been crystal clear all along that if the bill failed it would be the fault of Republicans, Blue Dog Democrats, anti-immigrant xenophobes and anti-abortion Catholics and fundie Protestants. Thus, it's been astonishing to watch visionaries and honest politicians like Kucinich get scapegoated.

I was very happy to hear about his decision.

Ocean
03-17-2010, 06:08 PM
I was very happy to hear about his decision.

I was very happy to hear about the Catholic nuns as well. Although I never thought that sentence could possibly come out of my mouth... ;)

uncle ebeneezer
03-17-2010, 06:11 PM
Me too. Never though I'd say it but: Hooray nuns!!

bjkeefe
03-17-2010, 06:13 PM
Me too. Never though I'd say it but: Hooray nuns!!

Yes indeed (http://wonkette.com/414276/59000-nuns-love-obamabortioncare)!

http://img.wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/nunsmoking.jpg

JonIrenicus
03-17-2010, 06:39 PM
Dennis Kucinich supported Obama's HCR for all the right reasons (as stated today at his press conference): 1) It's better than nothing; 2) Opposing it puts the whole Obama administration at risk of massive failure:
....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2BVb-LJVxU&feature=player_embedded#


One of his reasons was entirely the wrong reason, treating health care as a civil "right" or any kind of right.

It is wrong to do so. The idea that people ought to have a "right" to have other people serve and take care of them seems bizarre to me. You are basically asking for a basic "Right" to have other people attend to you. Even if you think it is something we should do on general principle, the act of taking care of people is a courtesy, a gift, not something anyone is owed.

But I guess too many people have warped and confused civic frameworks they operate from. The irony is that seeing it that way does not preclude many of the same acts and policies people clamor for. Even if you do not consider say, education, as a basic human right, nothing prevents one from seeing it as a core service that ought to be provided by the society at large.

AemJeff
03-17-2010, 09:11 PM
I wonder how long it will take teabagger apologists to tell us that this has nothing to do with the movement?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmaKRwUoAIU

TwinSwords
03-17-2010, 09:30 PM
I wonder how long it will take teabagger apologists to tell us that this has nothing to do with the movement?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmaKRwUoAIU

Holy crap. Coverage from Chris Matthews, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEReaml3n7w).

I continue to believe that cruelty is a core component of the conservative personality. It's not for nothing that conservatives have a reputation as heartless and hateful: It's fundamental to who most conservatives are as people.

TwinSwords
03-17-2010, 09:47 PM
...cruelty is a core component of the conservative personality. It's not for nothing that conservatives have a reputation as heartless and hateful: It's fundamental to who most conservatives are as people.

Popular blogger Dan Riehl, the guy who recently called for Obama's violent removal from office (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=153157&highlight=riehl#post153157) (in other words, a coup or revolution), and was handed a shoutout by wingnut lunatic blogger Melissa Clouthier (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=153274#post153274) a day later, tweets:

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/933/riehl.gif

How can any moral person associate themselves with this hate-filled movement?

claymisher
03-17-2010, 10:01 PM
I don't want to wait another 40 years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGKkPEvD2OM

TwinSwords
03-17-2010, 10:16 PM
I don't want to wait another 40 years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGKkPEvD2OM

Nixon: "I want American to have the finest health care in the world. And I want every American to have that care when he needs it."

LOL, I had no idea Nixon was a socialist.

Why does Nixon want to reward people for being lazy and sitting around doing nothing?

Thanks for posting the old news footage.

uncle ebeneezer
03-18-2010, 01:32 AM
In defense of the guy who was mocking the man with Parkinson's, he was no doubt just following the maxim "what would Jesus do?" I mean Jesus hung out with lepers so he could make fun of their suffering and tell them to stop asking for handouts right?

bjkeefe
03-18-2010, 03:50 AM
In defense of the guy who was mocking the man with Parkinson's, he was no doubt just following the maxim "what would Jesus do?" I mean Jesus hung out with lepers so he could make fun of their suffering and tell them to stop asking for handouts right?

LOL!

Yep, because it turns out that Jesus was a self-hater and a masochist: Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me.

listener
03-18-2010, 04:58 AM
Yes indeed (http://wonkette.com/414276/59000-nuns-love-obamabortioncare)!

HA!! Great photo (though she might be developing a bad habit) (sorry, couldn't resist that one)

listener
03-18-2010, 05:04 AM
LOL!

Yep, because it turns out that Jesus was a self-hater and a masochist: Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me.

I guess that would make Him the original self-hating Jew.

-------

"I may be self-hating, but it's not because I'm Jewish" -- Woody Allen, Deconstructing Harry

bjkeefe
03-18-2010, 05:13 AM
HA!! Great photo (though she might be developing a bad habit) ...

Nice.

Never apologize for a good pun.

bjkeefe
03-18-2010, 06:51 AM
Pretty good vid from Michele Mitchell, via James Wolcott (http://www.vanityfair.com/online/wolcott/2010/03/when-michele-mitchell-emailed-me.html), whose post must be read first.

uncle ebeneezer
03-18-2010, 12:14 PM
I agree that "right" doesn't seem like the ...right term. I think your core service analogy is right on themark. And I also think of HC as a gift. And I like giving gifts. And given the amount of wealth in this country I think healthcare is a gift that we should give to our fellow Americans.

listener
03-18-2010, 02:31 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2BVb-LJVxU&feature=player_embedded#


One of his reasons was entirely the wrong reason, treating health care as a civil "right" or any kind of right.

It is wrong to do so. The idea that people ought to have a "right" to have other people serve and take care of them seems bizarre to me. You are basically asking for a basic "Right" to have other people attend to you. Even if you think it is something we should do on general principle, the act of taking care of people is a courtesy, a gift, not something anyone is owed.

But I guess too many people have warped and confused civic frameworks they operate from. The irony is that seeing it that way does not preclude many of the same acts and policies people clamor for. Even if you do not consider say, education, as a basic human right, nothing prevents one from seeing it as a core service that ought to be provided by the society at large.

I think you've made a useful distinction, and one that I've not heard before. I am among those who think that health care, like education, is a "core service that ought to be provided by the society at large," yet I've always felt a vague discomfort with the framing of the healthcare debate as one between it being a "right" vs. a "responsibility." Thinking about it now, I guess it struck me as oversimplistic and glib. The way you framed it

listener
03-18-2010, 02:32 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2BVb-LJVxU&feature=player_embedded#


One of his reasons was entirely the wrong reason, treating health care as a civil "right" or any kind of right.

It is wrong to do so. The idea that people ought to have a "right" to have other people serve and take care of them seems bizarre to me. You are basically asking for a basic "Right" to have other people attend to you. Even if you think it is something we should do on general principle, the act of taking care of people is a courtesy, a gift, not something anyone is owed.

But I guess too many people have warped and confused civic frameworks they operate from. The irony is that seeing it that way does not preclude many of the same acts and policies people clamor for. Even if you do not consider say, education, as a basic human right, nothing prevents one from seeing it as a core service that ought to be provided by the society at large.

I think you've made a useful distinction, and one that I've not heard made before. I am among those who think that health care, like education, is a "core service that ought to be provided by the society at large," yet I've always felt a vague discomfort with the framing of the healthcare debate as between it being a "right" vs. a "responsibility." Thinking about it now, I guess that dichotomy always struck me as oversimplistic and glib. It seems to me that the way you framed it allows for more honest debate and less retreating into our relative corners and shouting self-righteous platitudes at each other.

listener
03-18-2010, 03:14 PM
Pretty good vid from Michele Mitchell, via James Wolcott (http://www.vanityfair.com/online/wolcott/2010/03/when-michele-mitchell-emailed-me.html), whose post must be read first.

Very entertaining article AND video! The video was bitingly witty and packed with salient facts. I know exactly what Michele Mitchell was talking about re: people Going Naked because of their basic mistrust of the insurance companies to do little more than take your money and then pull the rug out from under you when you actually need some substantial protection. For periods in my life, I have gone without health insurance because it seemed to me that the whole operation was basically a scam and not worth throwing my money at.

bjkeefe
03-18-2010, 04:18 PM
Timothy Egan (http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/17/the-purists/):

Ah, to be among the true believers, breathing only the clean air of sanctimony. Nothing is ever done, no lives improved, no laws passed. No messy deals tarnished by the poison of compromise. The public hates you — every poll shows that voters want both sides to legislate with a mix of ideas. But, oh, how good it must feel to be right all the time.

listener
03-18-2010, 04:41 PM
Timothy Egan (http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/17/the-purists/):

Good column by Egan, I thought. Ideological purity, or any way of thinking that leads people to view their ideals as of greater importance than anything else is misguided at best, and catastrophically dangerous at worst.

Or as one of my favorite thinkers, Jiddu Krishnamurti, put it: "Ideals are home-made gods and to conform to a self-projected image is surely not a release."

Besides, if the J.D. Hayworths of the world get their way, I'll be very disappointed that I won't be allowed to marry "Blazer (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/34424.html)," my American Saddlebred.

uncle ebeneezer
03-18-2010, 04:44 PM
Nice. I thought this part was great:

Reality is always a problem for purists. On the liberal side, many fail to comprehend that they are a distinct minority, stuck for years at around 19 percent of the public. When a liberal like Obama gets elected, he has to govern as a centrist for the simple reason that four-fifths of the country does not share his basic political outlook.

Smart liberals understand this. No one has been more passionate and consistent in favor of a single-payer universal health care system than Jim McDermott, the left-leaning congressman from Seattle.

claymisher
03-18-2010, 06:55 PM
For the record, HCR is supported by plenty of progressives: Pelosi, Waxman, McDermott, Sanders, Kennedy before he died, Wyden, Leahy, the unions, nearly every liberal blogger not named Jane Hamsher, and this flaming liberal right here.

Here's an update on progressive gains from the House reconciliation bill:
http://www.openleft.com/diary/17895/did-progressives-win-anything-in-the-health-reform-negotiation-process

AemJeff
03-18-2010, 08:28 PM
I wonder how long it will take teabagger apologists to tell us that this has nothing to do with the movement?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmaKRwUoAIU

It didn't take long, of course. (Who are these assholes? AFP (http://www.americansforprosperity.org/national-site))

Sometimes I really do love tweety!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E8GT1Saly0

bjkeefe
03-18-2010, 08:41 PM
Jim Newell (http://wonkette.com/414304/414304) says:

GOOD HEALTH CARE BILL OVERVIEW: Here is what you need to know about the major components of the final health care reform bill. It is a good bill and it will help more people than any bill in recent memory. It is not scary. It is so, so comically un-scary. [AP (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/18/health-care-reform-bill-c_n_505128.html)]

(That AP link is the one you want, in case it's not obvious.)

bjkeefe
03-18-2010, 08:43 PM
Jim Newell (http://wonkette.com/414304/414304) says: [...]

Also, this is hilarious (http://wonkette.com/414303/this-is-starting-to-get-exciting).

listener
03-18-2010, 09:02 PM
Also, this is hilarious (http://wonkette.com/414303/this-is-starting-to-get-exciting).

Ahh, such touching sentiments! They make me feel all nostalgic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SjI6Wl175I)!

bjkeefe
03-18-2010, 09:15 PM
More hope, from John Cole: "And There Will Be More Like This (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/18/and-there-will-be-more-like-this/)."

bjkeefe
03-18-2010, 09:17 PM
More hope, from John Cole: "And There Will Be More Like This (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/18/and-there-will-be-more-like-this/)."

Also, pass the damn bill, or Nancy Pelosi will punch out this baby (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/18/open-thread-smackdown/).

http://www.balloon-juice.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/nancy-300x201.jpg

bjkeefe
03-18-2010, 09:22 PM
Update (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/from-progressive-holdout-to-whipping-health-care----how-dennis-kucinich-is-helping-dems.php) (via (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/18/dennis-steps-up/)). Sounds like some kudos are in order for Mr. Kucinich.

A few hours after Rep. Dennis Kucinich switched his support (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/kucinich-to-vote-yes-on-health-care-reform--heres-why.php) to become a critical vote for the health care bill, he took to the House floor to ask wavering colleagues to join him. Astonished colleagues pointed to Kucinich (D-OH) darting from member to member on the House floor yesterday, saying privately they'd never seen him get so involved in whipping a vote.

It's not just progressives he's targeting to keep in the fold, it's everyone, a top Democratic aide told me. Members know that Kucinich - a staunch antiwar liberal long in favor of a single-payer system and often going out on a limb with his own agenda - is setting aside deep ideology to help get something passed. "It's a totally new dynamic. People are realizing he's doing it for history," the aide said.

Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA) told me last night in the House Speaker's lobby that Kucinich's support is "a sign of Democrats recognizing how important this is."

"If Kucinich can back this bill after the way he staked out a position against it, it does help show people they can come together too," Frank said.

(Obviously, when he was on Air Force One, Our Kenyan Overlord threatened to throw him out of the plane if he didn't play ball.) <-- coming soon to a wingnut blog near you!

kezboard
03-18-2010, 11:37 PM
I'm satisfied, basically -- both for personal and political reasons. Politically, I think it would be a disaster if the Democrats walked away with nothing, because not only would it harm them in the midterms, it would probably kill health care reform for at least a decade, and then when it comes back I have a feeling it would come back even weaker. Personally, I'm happy because it means that my girlfriend, who has serious medical problems, can stay on her parents' insurance after she graduates college. And I'm also excited because we're going to make a cake when it passes to celebrate (she likes baking, so it's really just an excuse).

Anyway, I really enjoyed this post by Nate Silver (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2010/03/progressives-strategic-choices-on.html), which makes the case that this outcome is probably as good as we're likely to get.

uncle ebeneezer
03-18-2010, 11:48 PM
I hate to attribute anything positive to a Yankee fan but I remember one time Artie Lang on the Howard Stern show saying he saw a great player (Randy Johnson I think) and remarked "Wow he's amazing, we gotta get him!" Which even as a Sox fan, I had to laugh at the blatant admission that $ is no object for the Evil Empire. Anyways, that's kinda how I feel about Nate Silver and BHTV. Make it happen, Bob.

PS Happy Spring Training and good luck to the fans of baseball (well except one team ;)

PS Kez, I hope you get to have your cake and eat it too...together.

listener
03-19-2010, 12:12 AM
Anyway, I really enjoyed this post by Nate Silver (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2010/03/progressives-strategic-choices-on.html), which makes the case that this outcome is probably as good as we're likely to get.

Thanks for the Silver link, kezboard. I hadn't been to 538 in a while, and Nate's nerdy-wonky-genius brain is always interesting to follow. But in this case, he didn't have me convinced. I'm more or less completely ignorant in the area of statistics but it seemed to me that there were SO many variables in the algorithm he was using, and who knows how many other variables that it may not have taken into account, that it all seemed too much of a stretch. To be fair to Silver, though, he did say that he was doing it mostly for fun. And my intuition is the same as his, that it's likely that nothing done by any one of the 12 parties included in the algorithm would have changed the outcome significantly.

All the best of good fortune to your girlfriend, I sure hope she gets to keep her insurance! And as uncle ebeneezer said, enjoy your cake.

bjkeefe
03-19-2010, 12:20 AM
... from the American Enterprise Institute (http://blog.american.com/?p=11467) (!):

Hypocrisy: A Parliamentary Procedure

Any veteran observer of Congress is used to the rampant hypocrisy over the use of parliamentary procedures that shifts totally from one side to the other as a majority moves to minority status, and vice versa. But I can’t recall a level of feigned indignation nearly as great as what we are seeing now from congressional Republicans and their acolytes at the Wall Street Journal, and on blogs, talk radio, and cable news. It reached a ridiculous level of misinformation and disinformation over the use of reconciliation, and now threatens to top that level over the projected use of a self-executing rule by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. In the last Congress that Republicans controlled, from 2005 to 2006, Rules Committee Chairman David Dreier used the self-executing rule more than 35 times, and was no stranger to the concept of “deem and pass.” That strategy, then decried by the House Democrats who are now using it, and now being called unconstitutional by WSJ editorialists, was defended by House Republicans in court (and upheld). Dreier used it for a $40 billion deficit reduction package so that his fellow GOPers could avoid an embarrassing vote on immigration. I don’t like self-executing rules by either party—I prefer the “regular order”—so I am not going to say this is a great idea by the Democrats. But even so—is there no shame anymore?

And as Josh Marshall (http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2010/03/all_nonsense.php) observes:

And the Democrats? They complained about it then too, though to the best of my knowledge there were no claims of treason.

(h/t: Bob Cesca (http://www.bobcesca.com/blog-archives/2010/03/demon_pass_part.html))

[Added] Also via Cesca (http://www.bobcesca.com/blog-archives/2010/03/mike_pence_worl.html): It knows no bounds, this Republican hypocrisy: Lying or stupid, the Mike Pence Edition (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2010_03/022909.php).

[Added2] Yglesias has been onto (http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2010/01/obama-at-the-house-gop-retreat.php) this (http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/02/mike_pence_calls_for_massive_anti_stimulus.php) clown (http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/03/mike_pence_doesnt_know_what_the_deficit_would_be_i f_mike_pences_budget_were_implemented.php) for (http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/05/mike-pence-is-not-an-intelligent-man.php) a while.

listener
03-19-2010, 12:30 AM
Wow, Brendan, you are a regular newsgathering machine! Do you ever sleep?

But seriously, thanks for all of your links. I check most of them and they are almost always worthwhile.

bjkeefe
03-19-2010, 02:58 AM
Wow, Brendan, you are a regular newsgathering machine!

No, the blogosphere is! I just dip my beaker in the flood.

Do you ever sleep?

Intermittently.

But seriously, thanks for all of your links. I check most of them and they are almost always worthwhile.

y/w, and thx.

bjkeefe
03-19-2010, 02:58 AM
[...]

Following up, here's a more nuts-and-bolts argument (http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2010/03/deem-creep) from SEK at LGM.

bjkeefe
03-19-2010, 03:04 AM
Update (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/from-progressive-holdout-to-whipping-health-care----how-dennis-kucinich-is-helping-dems.php) (via (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/18/dennis-steps-up/)). Sounds like some kudos are in order for Mr. Kucinich.

Scott Lemieux (http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2010/03/the-kucinich-vote-is-principled) captures it brilliantly:

To his credit, Dennis Kucinich will be voting for health care reform (http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/health-care/breaking-kucinich-to-vote-yes/). This [has] led to some grimly predictable concern (http://joshuapundit.blogspot.com/2010/03/kucinich-bends-over-for-obamacare.html) trolling (http://legalinsurrection.blogspot.com/2010/03/will-kucinich-stand-tall-or-small.html) from conservatives who have discovered their admiration for Kucinich’s integrity just in time to repudiate it.

popcorn_karate
03-19-2010, 06:07 PM
Wow, Brendan, you are a regular newsgathering machine! Do you ever sleep?

But seriously, thanks for all of your links. I check most of them and they are almost always worthwhile.

when i'm news hungry, i come here and follow BJ's Links.

I rarely even get through half of them because i start down other rabbit holes off of those links - but yes, its a valuable service for a lazy lefty like me.

bjkeefe
03-19-2010, 06:15 PM
when i'm news hungry, i come here and follow BJ's Links.

I rarely even get through half of them because i start down other rabbit holes off of those links - but yes, its a valuable service for a lazy lefty like me.

Glad to hear it. Thanks for letting me know.

bjkeefe
03-19-2010, 07:26 PM
Usually, it's a M-F organization, but! Newell threatens (http://wonkette.com/414328/414328):

YOUR WONKETTE WILL BE TYPING THIS WEEKEND! On this first warm, sunny weekend in Washington, your editors have decided to forgo such Springtime activities as playing Xbox and hiding under the couch in order to cover the big House health care vote, somehow. So check in for some posts whenever the post-worthy stuff is going to happen, mostly on Sunday, after Church and Family Supper.

bjkeefe
03-19-2010, 08:12 PM
... AMA Supports House Passage of Health System Reform (http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/health-system-reform/ama-supports-reform-passage.shtml).

(h/t: LGF (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/36007_AMA_Endorses_Health_Care_Reform_Bill#rss))

bjkeefe
03-19-2010, 09:11 PM
Or ... real Rush was "disappeared" and an imposter has been installed by Our Kenyan Overlord.

The story: Wingnut paranoia turns itself up to 11!!!1! when The Lardbo gives out the wrong number to the Dittoheads.

Read this (http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/03/19/alert-the-patriots-tyrants-are-ruining-our-country/), then watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fra24pjXBc). You'll be glad you did.

"Sounds like Germany in the 1930s, folks11!!!1!" And then ... the ... video ... ends. COINCIDENCE???

(h/t: John Cole (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/19/youll-shoot-your-eye-out/))

listener
03-19-2010, 09:44 PM
Ick. I felt like I had to take a shower after watching that.

AemJeff
03-19-2010, 10:30 PM
... AMA Supports House Passage of Health System Reform (http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/health-system-reform/ama-supports-reform-passage.shtml).

(h/t: LGF (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/36007_AMA_Endorses_Health_Care_Reform_Bill#rss))

Communists.

Ocean
03-19-2010, 10:37 PM
Communists.

And how!

bjkeefe
03-20-2010, 07:06 AM
Today's column from Gail Collins (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/20/opinion/20collins.html) is pretty good, in a rally-the-troops way.

Ditto Charles Blow's (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/20/opinion/20blow.html), and ditto Paul Krugman's (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/19/opinion/19krugman.html), from yesterday.

TwinSwords
03-20-2010, 08:24 AM
Today's column from Gail Collins (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/20/opinion/20collins.html) is pretty good, in a rally-the-troops way.

Ditto Charles Blow's (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/20/opinion/20blow.html), and ditto Paul Krugman's (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/19/opinion/19krugman.html), from yesterday.

Steve Benen, on where reform stands with one day to go (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2010_03/022953.php).

Getting closer, but not quite there yet, he says.

claymisher
03-20-2010, 02:59 PM
Exciting weekend!

TPM's live HCR news feed:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/live/countdown-to-reform-wire/

Ezra Klein's twitter list of HCR reporters:
http://twitter.com/ezraklein/health-care

listener
03-20-2010, 03:22 PM
On the lighter side, for those who missed it, Colbert's interview with Mary Matalin (http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/267675/march-18-2010/mary-matalin) from Thursday.

Colbert usually cuts his conservative guests some slack, but he was absolutely merciless with Matalin (which I thought was pretty cruel to do to a deaf person -- oh wait, no, that's Marlee Matlin; I always get those two confused). Colbert was relentless and very funny, and the beleaguered look on Matalin's face was priceless.

Add to this Jon Stewart's extended riff on Glenn Beck (http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/267675/march-18-2010/mary-matalin), and Thursday was a banner day at Comedy Central.

Ocean
03-20-2010, 03:33 PM
On the lighter side, for those who missed it, Colbert's interview with Mary Matalin (http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/267675/march-18-2010/mary-matalin) from Thursday.

Colbert usually cuts his conservative guests some slack, but he was absolutely merciless with Matalin (which I thought was pretty cruel to do to a deaf person -- oh wait, no, that's Marlee Matlin; I always get those two confused). Colbert was relentless and very funny, and the beleaguered look on Matalin's face was priceless.

Add to this Jon Stewart's extended riff on Glenn Beck (http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/267675/march-18-2010/mary-matalin), and Thursday was a banner day at Comedy Central.

I guess I'm not the only Comedy Central fan around here...

claymisher
03-20-2010, 03:45 PM
I'm watching Pelosi and Obama on CSPAN right now. They sure seem confident.

People joke about Democrats being unorganized but don't forget that when Republicans controlled everything they couldn't even get their long-term project, Social Security privatization, out of committee.

claymisher
03-20-2010, 03:50 PM
Good lord, Harry Reid actually made an effective speech.

claymisher
03-20-2010, 04:08 PM
At this point I'm just looking forward to the wingnut freakout. But not this:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2716/4448018629_56d56b2f90.jpg

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/03/20/code-red-gun/

uncle ebeneezer
03-20-2010, 04:27 PM
Does anyone else have problems with Comedy Central streams (they take FOREVER!)?

listener
03-20-2010, 04:27 PM
I guess I'm not the only Comedy Central fan around here...

No, I'm sure you're not!

Ocean
03-20-2010, 04:29 PM
Does anyone else have problems with Comedy Central streams (they take FOREVER!)?

No, not really. I sometimes have problems like that but not specific to comedy central.

bjkeefe
03-20-2010, 06:27 PM
At this point I'm just looking forward to the wingnut freakout. But not this:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2716/4448018629_56d56b2f90.jpg

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/03/20/code-red-gun/

Another shot, plus some links to reports of other charming behavior, here (http://wonkette.com/414330/latest-capitol-hill-anti-hcr-rally-running-smoothly-politely).

bjkeefe
03-20-2010, 06:46 PM
Another shot, plus some links to reports of other charming behavior, here (http://wonkette.com/414330/latest-capitol-hill-anti-hcr-rally-running-smoothly-politely).

Also: brick thrown (http://www.buffalonews.com/2010/03/20/993642/brick-hurled-into-window-of-slaughters.html) through Rep. Louise Slaughter's office window. (h/t (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/20/getting-ugly/))

</just-a-few-bad-apples>

bjkeefe
03-20-2010, 06:53 PM
... reports (is?) Tim F. (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/20/great-news-2/):

Someone make me stop updating Ezra’s twitter stream (http://twitter.com/ezraklein/health-care).

KagroX RT @AlanColmes:Palin Concerned Obama’s Lack Of Experience Has Him “Over His Head” On #hcr http://bit.ly/bsRCbe || Written all the way up arm

wonkroom Managers amendment is only 9 pages. Hope Republicans can read it in just 24 hours. http://moourl.com/0mqel

bjkeefe
03-20-2010, 07:05 PM
Also: brick thrown (http://www.buffalonews.com/2010/03/20/993642/brick-hurled-into-window-of-slaughters.html) through Rep. Louise Slaughter's office window. (h/t (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/20/getting-ugly/))

</just-a-few-bad-apples>

More right-wing classiness:

NYT, via No More Mister Nice Blog (http://nomoremister.blogspot.com/2010/03/kick-em-when-their-down-party-of.html):

Representative Kathy Dahlkemper [Democrat] of Pennsylvania won her district by just 2.5 percentage points. An anti-[health care] overhaul television ad questioned her commitment to fighting cancer, even after she lost both parents to the disease in the past month.

And also in NMMNB (http://nomoremister.blogspot.com/2010/03/impeachment-op-ed-in-washington-times.html), different post: The Washington Times is running an op-ed calling for Obama's impeachment. At the time of Steve M.'s posting, this was the lead item on the Fox Nation web site.

</just-a-few-bad-apples>

TwinSwords
03-20-2010, 08:35 PM
And also in NMMNB (http://nomoremister.blogspot.com/2010/03/impeachment-op-ed-in-washington-times.html), different post: The Washington Times is running an op-ed calling for Obama's impeachment. At the time of Steve M.'s posting, this was the lead item on the Fox Nation web site.

</just-a-few-bad-apples>

Note the item right below the call for impeachment. On the Fox Nation website, "A Call to Arms."

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1N3cxhPVIxc/S6PO9uXuctI/AAAAAAAACBw/r2-hFhDPMXo/s400/impeach+jpg.jpg

Jon Voight is the one who previously suggested that Obama was driving the country towards civil war.

If health care passes, watch for a massive escalation of violent rhetoric from the Republican Party and its followers.

claymisher
03-20-2010, 10:00 PM
"In a curious way, the Massachusetts vote helped bring a conclusion to health care,” said Senate Budget Committee Chairman Kent Conrad (D-ND). “It helped people get comfortable with the idea of a path forward that would have been the only path forward anyway."

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/34753_Page3.html#ixzz0ilx2LufJ

bjkeefe
03-20-2010, 11:02 PM
Another pic (http://img704.yfrog.com/i/kzj.jpg/) from today's "rally:"

http://img704.yfrog.com/img704/7485/kzj.jpg


</just-a-few-bad-apples-also-not-racist>

(h/t (taken by?): Dave Weigel (http://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/10784710448))

==========

[Added] Another (http://img509.yfrog.com/i/i8l.jpg/) (via (http://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/10783647596)):

http://img509.yfrog.com/img509/4426/i8l.jpg

</just-a-few-bad-apples-also-not-racist>

bjkeefe
03-20-2010, 11:41 PM
Another report (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/20/AR2010032002556_pf.html) (via (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/20/spit-on-a-stranger/)):

Members of the Congressional Black Caucus said that racial epithets were hurled at them Saturday by angry protesters who had gathered at the Capitol to protest health-care legislation, and one congressman said he was spit upon. The most high-profile openly gay congressman, Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.), was heckled with anti-gay chants.

Rep. Emanuel Cleaver (D-Mo.) issued a statement late Saturday saying that he was spit upon while walking to the Capitol to cast a vote, leading the Capitol Police to usher him into the building out of concern for his safety. Police detained the individual, who was then released because Cleaver declined to press charges.

[...]

Protesters outside the Capitol hurled epithets at Reps. John Lewis (D-Ga.) and Andre Carson (D-Ind.) as they left the building after President Obama delivered an 11th-hour speech on behalf of the health care bill. Carson told reporters that protesters yelled "kill the bill," then used a racial epithet to describe Carson and Lewis, who is a revered figure on both sides of the aisle.

According to observers, Frank was confronted by about 100 protesters inside the Longworth House Office Building, where Democrats were huddling for another meeting about the legislation. Some targeted Frank with anti-gay epithets and urged him to vote against the bill.

Democratic leaders and their aides said they were outraged by the day's behavior. "I have heard things today that I have not heard since March 15, 1960, when I was marching to get off the back of the bus," said House Majority Whip James Clyburn (D-S.C.), the highest-ranking black official in Congress.

And Majority Leader Steny H. Hoyer (D-Md.) said in a statement, "On the one hand, I am saddened that America's debate on health care -- which could have been a national conversation of substance and respect -- has degenerated to the point of such anger and incivility. But on the other, I know that every step toward a more just America has aroused similar hate in its own time; and I know that John Lewis, a hero of the civil rights movement, has learned to wear the worst slurs as a badge of honor."

"This is not the first time the congressman has been called the "n" word and certainly not the worst assault he has endured in his years fighting for equal rights for all Americans," said Rotert, Cleaver's spokesman. "That being said, he is disappointed that in the 21st century our national discourse has devolved to the point of name-calling and spitting."

[...]

On the first day of spring, most lawmakers walked across the street from their office buildings to the Capitol, rather than using the underground tunnels. That brought them into contact with protesters forming a gauntlet on each side of the walkway leading into the House. At one point, when Majority Leader Steny H. Hoyer (D-Md.) wanted to walk across the street to an office building, he was ushered into a car by his security detail and driven a couple hundred feet through the screaming crowd.


</just-a-few-bad-apples-also-not-racist>

bjkeefe
03-21-2010, 01:43 AM
"Crowd" shot, such as it was, from TBogg (http://tbogg.firedoglake.com/2010/03/20/nobody-goes-there-anymore-its-too-crowded/).

Bonus: his new collective noun is FTW.

claymisher
03-21-2010, 12:59 PM
Now that the HCR behind-the-scenes stories are coming out it sure seems like Pelosi is one of the heroes of the story.

AemJeff
03-21-2010, 01:02 PM
Now that the HCR behind-the-scenes stories are coming out it sure seems like Pelosi is one of the heroes of the story.

It looks like she just jerked Stupak over the threshold!

AemJeff
03-21-2010, 04:11 PM
It looks like she just jerked Stupak over the threshold!

That was premature - but Stupak just officially announced his support for HCR in exchange for an executive order from Obama on the federal funding for abortion issue. So, I guess Obama really gets the credit for dragging Stupak's carcass over the finish line.

bjkeefe
03-21-2010, 04:16 PM
Now that the HCR behind-the-scenes stories are coming out it sure seems like Pelosi is one of the heroes of the story.

I agree. That thought popped into my head last night. And then I just read this (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/03/21/watch-the-narrative-change-before-your-very-eyes/).

bjkeefe
03-21-2010, 10:57 PM
Now that the HCR behind-the-scenes stories are coming out it sure seems like Pelosi is one of the heroes of the story.

Indeed. Let's remember this image (http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/03/22/us/22healthcnd3_337-span/22healthcnd3_337-span-articleLarge.jpg) (from (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/22/health/policy/22health.html)):

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/03/22/us/22healthcnd3_337-span/22healthcnd3_337-span-articleLarge.jpg

TwinSwords
03-21-2010, 11:23 PM
Conservatives are pissed!

The folks at Free Republic (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2476425/posts) plan to exact their revenge:

How's that census going? (The night Obamacare came forth from the ooze...)


Right now my census is on top the fridge not filled out. After losing our liberty today it's staying there.

****

I was thinking the same thing when it became clear this was going to pass.

****

Not surprised. Will take my sweet time filling mine's out.

****

I too was on the fence. No longer. This made my choice easy.

****

Me too!

****

...I threw mine in the trash last week. F-EM!

****

... The census form I "never got" is sitting on the bottom of my trash can.


****

Right now, Obama can $@@!%#% his #^%@%1 with ^$#@%@!# while taking his %#@#%# and shoving his #%!#% into his %#T!#T%>....

(LOL! (http://nomoremister.blogspot.com/2010/03/thatll-show-em-folks-at-free-republic.html))

bjkeefe
03-21-2010, 11:27 PM
Conservatives are pissed!

The folks at Free Republic (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2476425/posts) plan to exact their revenge:



(LOL! (http://nomoremister.blogspot.com/2010/03/thatll-show-em-folks-at-free-republic.html))

LOL is right. Remember what happened when Crazy Eyes Bachmann proposed not filling out the census form. Let us hope every one of those Freepers lives in her district. Or upstate NY. Or Texas. Or any red district anywhere, for that matter.

uncle ebeneezer
03-21-2010, 11:32 PM
Right now, Obama can $@@!%#% his #^%@%1 with ^$#@%@!# while taking his %#@#%# and shoving his #%!#% into his %#T!#T%>....

Wow, this guy really should get his "shift" key fixed.

listener
03-21-2010, 11:35 PM
Wow, this guy really should get his "shift" key fixed.

Or would that be his "sh*t" key?

bjkeefe
03-21-2010, 11:46 PM
Wow, this guy really should get his "shift" key fixed.

It never fails to make me LOL @ wingnuts who refuse to type out cuss words, yet have no compunction whatsoever about spewing forth hate speech.

bjkeefe
03-22-2010, 02:56 AM
Now that the HCR behind-the-scenes stories are coming out it sure seems like Pelosi is one of the heroes of the story.

How Jim Newell concluded his liveblog (http://wonkette.com/414361/liveblogging-the-vote-on-the-senates-health-care-bill)of tonight's exciting votes:

ONE MORE THING: 11:47 — *bows to Nancy Pelosi*

Ocean
03-25-2010, 09:41 PM
Probably everybody knows this, but the House passed the reconciliation bill after the changes passed earlier today by the Senate.

Now it will go for President Obama's signature.

:)

listener
03-25-2010, 09:48 PM
Probably everybody knows this, but the House passed the reconciliation bill after the changes passed earlier today by the Senate.

Now it will go for President Obama's signature.

:)

Thanks for the news, I was watching other stuff and this is the first I've heard of it.

bjkeefe
03-25-2010, 10:30 PM
Probably everybody knows this, but the House passed the reconciliation bill after the changes passed earlier today by the Senate.

Now it will go for President Obama's signature.

:)

I had heard about the Senate, but not about the House. ˇMuchas gracias!

Here is the NYT report (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/health/policy/26health.html), and Kaiser Health News has more links to coverage from the MSM (http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Daily-Reports/2010/March/25/House-passes-health-reform-bill.aspx), for those interested. Still more here (http://www.google.com/search?q=house+passes+reconciliation&hl=en&safe=off&tbs=nws:1&tbo=u&ei=8xysS4m-L8H68AbW1723Dw&sa=X&oi=news_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CBEQsQQwAA) (time-sensitive link).

From the NYT article:

“The American people have waited for this moment for a century,” the Senate majority leader, Harry Reid of Nevada, said at a news conference. “This, of course, was a health bill. But it is also a jobs bill, an economic recovery bill, was a deficit-reduction bill, was an antidiscrimination bill. It was truly a bill of rights. And now it is the law of the land.”

Looks a little worn out, doesn't he? [imglink (http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2010/03/26/us/26health-cnd.html)]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/03/26/us/26health-cnd/26health-cnd-popup.jpg

Ocean
03-25-2010, 10:40 PM
I had heard about the Senate, but not about the House. Muchas gracias!

De nada!

Here is the NYT report (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/health/policy/26health.html), and Kaiser Health News has more links to coverage from the MSM (http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Daily-Reports/2010/March/25/House-passes-health-reform-bill.aspx), for those interested. Still more here (http://www.google.com/search?q=house+passes+reconciliation&hl=en&safe=off&tbs=nws:1&tbo=u&ei=8xysS4m-L8H68AbW1723Dw&sa=X&oi=news_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CBEQsQQwAA) (time-sensitive link).


Thanks.

From the NYT article:



Looks a little worn out, doesn't he? [imglink (http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2010/03/26/us/26health-cnd.html)]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/03/26/us/26health-cnd/26health-cnd-popup.jpg

It's been a marathon. Over a year.

bjkeefe
03-25-2010, 10:43 PM
It's been a marathon. Over a year.

Oh yeah. I wasn't belittling him by saying that. I was thinking of it as a tribute, especially in light of how fatiguing it's been for those of us appreciably younger, who have had nothing to do but chatter about it. I mean, feel the burn from this snarker (http://wonkette.com/414445/414445) ... one word says it all.

bjkeefe
03-25-2010, 11:21 PM
Looks a little worn out, doesn't he? [imglink (http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2010/03/26/us/26health-cnd.html)]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/03/26/us/26health-cnd/26health-cnd-popup.jpg

This, currently on the front page of TPM (http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/), is as beautiful a depiction of Tired But Happy as I've ever seen, at least apart from the field of sport and mothers with newborns: [imglink (http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/assets_c/2010/03/nancy-pelosi-flags-cropped-proto-custom_1.jpg)]

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/assets_c/2010/03/nancy-pelosi-flags-cropped-proto-custom_1.jpg

bjkeefe
03-25-2010, 11:31 PM
This, currently on the front page of TPM (http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/), is as beautiful a depiction of Tired But Happy as I've ever seen, at least apart from the field of sport and mothers with newborns: [imglink (http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/assets_c/2010/03/nancy-pelosi-flags-cropped-proto-custom_1.jpg)]

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/assets_c/2010/03/nancy-pelosi-flags-cropped-proto-custom_1.jpg

And here is another nice one from TPM's headline article (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/congress-finishes-health-care-reform--for-good-this-time.php): [imglink (http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/assets_c/2010/03/obama-pelosi-hug-cropped-proto-custom_2.jpg)]

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/assets_c/2010/03/obama-pelosi-hug-cropped-proto-custom_2.jpg