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View Full Version : Movement of the people


Unit
01-24-2010, 02:48 PM
Here's the moral thing to do. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/22/AR2010012202274.html)

Lyle
01-24-2010, 07:13 PM
I'm down with it (http://reason.com/blog/2010/01/24/the-best-way-to-help-haiti).

Let them in! Let them in! Let them in!

cognitive madisonian
01-24-2010, 07:49 PM
Realistically, I don't see how a solution that doesn't involve temporary to longterm population resettlement can work. Port Au Prince was ridiculously overpacked when the earthquake hit, and now that virtually all of the infrastructure has been destroyed, the city certain;y won't be able to hold close to that many people.

Honestly though, I wonder about Haiti's sustainability as a country. Due to a variety factors, including the unfavorable climate, history of political instability, etc.

Unit
01-24-2010, 10:11 PM
Realistically, I don't see how a solution that doesn't involve temporary to longterm population resettlement can work. Port Au Prince was ridiculously overpacked when the earthquake hit, and now that virtually all of the infrastructure has been destroyed, the city certain;y won't be able to hold close to that many people.

Honestly though, I wonder about Haiti's sustainability as a country. Due to a variety factors, including the unfavorable climate, history of political instability, etc.

They also have very unfavorable trade deals with the US as opposed to say the Dominican Rep who is allowed the largest quota of sugar cane exports.

Unfortunately, it seems that the administration is dropping the ball big time on this issue and does not seem interested in going after the sugar lobby for instance.

Lyle
01-24-2010, 11:10 PM
How's more sugar trade suppose to really help out 10,000,000 people? I'm all for free trade, but let's get real... the agricultural commodity of sugar ain't going to save Haiti, in fact it's probably the main reason Haiti is in dire straits. Once it was king, and now it's a voodoo curse. Haiti simply doesn't have much of an economic future. Agriculture isn't that viable and it certainly can't sustain 10 million folks. Those people need to get off that island and go to work in a big city somewhere. France, America, and Canada... that's Haiti's future.


edit: ... maybe even French speaking Africa. Senegal is apparently offering free and fertile plots of land.

Unit
01-24-2010, 11:15 PM
How's more sugar trade suppose to really help out 10,000,000 people? I'm all for free trade, but let's get real... the agricultural commodity of sugar ain't going to save Haiti, in fact it's probably the main reason Haiti is in dire straits. Once it was king, and now it's a voodoo curse. Haiti simply doesn't have much of future. Agriculture isn't that viable and it certainly can't sustain 10 million folks. Those people need to get off that island and go to work in a big city somewhere. France, America, and Canada... that's Haiti's future.


edit: ... maybe even French speaking Africa. Senegal is apparently offering free and fertile plots of land.

If we don't allow them to sell their agricultural products we will never know. As I said, the other side of the island has different trade deals and is doing eight times better.

Lyle
01-25-2010, 12:01 AM
Oh, I think we know... the farming of sugarcane cannot support 10 million people. It would be great if sugar was as successful as it was in colonial times (thank you slavery!) for Haiti, but due to international competition it can't be anywhere near the same today. There should be free trade, but that will help only a few. Haiti has got way too many people living on such a small area of land. They need factory jobs and the like, not massive small farming. I'm not even sure if the agronomy of Haiti is that fertile anymore.

edit: agriculture in Haiti (bad soil, too much world competition) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_Haiti)

Unit
01-25-2010, 12:19 AM
Oh, I think we know... the farming of sugarcane cannot support 10 million people. It would be great if sugar was as successful as it was in colonial times (thank you slavery!) for Haiti, but due to international competition it can't be anywhere near the same today. There should be free trade, but that will help only a few. Haiti has got way too many people living on such a small area of land. They need factory jobs and the like, not massive small farming. I'm not even sure if the agronomy of Haiti is that fertile anymore.

edit: agriculture in Haiti (bad soil, too much world competition) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_Haiti)

I disagree that free-trade would only help a few. You don't know what would come up. Nobody predicted Kenya would become leading exporter of fresh-cut flowers for instance. I'm not going to make guesses about the comparative advantages of the Haitian labor force and their institutional arrangements.

Lyle
01-25-2010, 12:30 AM
Like I said, we should have free trade with them cause it would be beneficial to them and us. You're talking sugar though and sugar alone can't save Haiti. We're talking 10 million people, with the price of sugar being at whatever it is, and that's even if the agronomy is fertile enough for growing thousands of acres of sugarcane.

T-shirt factories... that's what Haiti needs.

edit: Top 10 countries in sugar cane yields (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugarcane)

Brazil 514,079,729
India 355,520,000
People's Republic of China 106,316,000
Thailand 64,365,682
Pakistan 54,752,000
Mexico 50,680,000
Colombia 40,000,000
Australia 36,000,000
United States 27,750,600
Philippines 25,300,000

Yep, like Kenya with fresh-cut flowers, there's hope for Haiti to out compete Brazil, India, and the PRC and become the leading producer of sugarcane in the world... and even more than the Dominican Republic, it's neighbor, who's not even in the top 10, and has a much more ecologically stable country.

So, I know you love the sugar industry in the U.S.... but Haiti ain't a good reason to pooh pooh it anymore than it already it is.

Unit
01-25-2010, 12:39 AM
Like I said, we should have free trade with them cause it would be beneficial to them and us. You're talking sugar though and sugar alone can't save Haiti. We're talking 10 million people, with the price of sugar being at whatever it is, and that's even if the agronomy is fertile enough for growing thousands of acres of sugarcane.

T-shirt factories... that's what Haiti needs.

I'm certainly not going to make predictions on what Haiti needs. I mentioned the sugar lobby because it's particularly egregious.

Lyle
01-25-2010, 12:43 AM
I edited my last post... you should take a gander at it. And, yes, I responded to your post precisely because you mentioned the sugar lobby. Haiti just ain't another reason to point fingers at the U.S. sugar lobby.

Unit
01-25-2010, 01:01 AM
Like I said, we should have free trade with them cause it would be beneficial to them and us. You're talking sugar though and sugar alone can't save Haiti. We're talking 10 million people, with the price of sugar being at whatever it is, and that's even if the agronomy is fertile enough for growing thousands of acres of sugarcane.

T-shirt factories... that's what Haiti needs.

edit: Top 10 countries in sugar cane yields (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugarcane)

Brazil 514,079,729
India 355,520,000
People's Republic of China 106,316,000
Thailand 64,365,682
Pakistan 54,752,000
Mexico 50,680,000
Colombia 40,000,000
Australia 36,000,000
United States 27,750,600
Philippines 25,300,000

Yep, like Kenya with fresh-cut flowers, there's hope for Haiti to out compete Brazil, India, and the PRC and become the leading producer of sugarcane in the world... and even more than the Dominican Republic, it's neighbor, who's not even in the top 10, and has a much more ecologically stable country.

So, I know you love the sugar industry in the U.S.... but Haiti ain't a good reason to pooh pooh it anymore than it already it is.

I'm not sure why those numbers should be relevant. If you can produce something at low cost, even if it's a modest amount, you'll still sell it. Isn't that what single US states do?

Lyle
01-25-2010, 01:14 AM
Of course, but Louisiana likely outproduces Haiti in sugar and only has 4 million people (few of whom who are even involved in the sugar industry). We're not talking about Haiti having a sugarcane industry, we're talking about Haiti having a sugarcane industry worth a damn, i.e., to most of its 10 million people.

However, to counter my view there's this (http://news.za.msn.com/world/article.aspx?cp-documentid=151835193)... although most farmers in Haiti don't grow sugarcane, they subsistence farm or grow other cash crops.

Unit
01-25-2010, 01:33 AM
Of course, but Louisiana likely outproduces Haiti in sugar and only has 4 million people (few of whom who are even involved in the sugar industry). We're not talking about Haiti having a sugarcane industry, we're talking about Haiti having a sugarcane industry worth a damn, i.e., to most of its 10 million people.

However, to counter my view there's this (http://news.za.msn.com/world/article.aspx?cp-documentid=151835193)... although most farmers in Haiti don't grow sugarcane, they subsistence farm or grow other cash crops.

My point is that free movement of people would be the foremost beneficial thing right now for Haiti, and, as a corollary, free movement of the people's products would also be quite beneficial, whatever those products might be.

Lyle
01-25-2010, 01:51 AM
Yes, and I'm with you... but you had to mention sugar specifically and sugar ain't what it used to be in Haiti.