PDA

View Full Version : Showtime at the Apollo (nikkibong & PreppyMcPrepperson)


Bloggingheads
09-22-2009, 06:41 PM
The "View Diavlog" link doesn't work yet in the Apollo forum. Here's the correct link (http://apollo.bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/22652).

graz
09-22-2009, 07:25 PM
Are these two on a date, and through the power of new technology we're eavesdropping?

Was I also having a flashback or was the psychedelic effect (voice as well as vision) purposeful?

Are these the bhtv junior league tryouts? McArdle does no better in transmitting her personal anecdotes.

Where is the conflict? On what subject are they disagreeing? No offense, but who cares?

kidneystones
09-22-2009, 07:26 PM
Congratulations to bong and preppy!

Ethan seems much sharper and more focused on camera than he does in his comments. Preppy also impressed.

As an Apollo skeptic, I'm pleasantly surprised. Thanks to both and to bhtv for the innovative addition to the viewing menu.

nikkibong
09-22-2009, 07:30 PM
Are these two on a date, and through the power of new technology we're eavesdropping?

Was I also having a flashback or was the psychedelic effect (voice as well as vision) purposeful?

Are these the bhtv junior league tryouts? McArdle does no better in transmitting her personal anecdotes.

Where is the conflict? On what subject are they disagreeing? No offense, but who cares?

graz, did you watch the diavlog? For the first 15 minutes we talked about the media biz at large. Then, we switched to a brief, and yes, McArdle-esque description of our own attempts at entering the 'biz.'

We didn't feel compelled to disagree about anything; it was more of the expository style.

Of course, you and I could continue this discussion via diavlog... :)

Thanks for watching.

Ocean
09-22-2009, 07:43 PM
OMG!!!! Nikki!!!! Is this true??? (http://apollo.bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/22652?in=17:20&out=17:26)

Now, seriously, this was great!

Don't listen to graz. He's just envious because of the great job the two of you did. ;)

Congrats!

graz
09-22-2009, 07:46 PM
I love you anyhow. And I'm glad you satisfied your desire for face time.
I'll continue to read all your writing - comments or published works.
But Apollo auditions and self-promotions... not so much.

Which is less a reflection on you and more a criticism of bhtv. Hey wait, you're right, the first fifteen minutes are no different than many of the dv's on the main page. And they didn't even have to pay you. You go!

Ocean
09-22-2009, 07:49 PM
Are these two on a date,

Perhaps.

and through the power of new technology we're eavesdropping?

Wishful thinking.

Was I also having a flashback

Most likely.


or was the psychedelic effect (voice as well as vision) purposeful?

It's your imagination.

Are these the bhtv junior league tryouts?

You can think of it that way.

McArdle does no better in transmitting her personal anecdotes.

I agree.

Where is the conflict? On what subject are they disagreeing?

Are you against peaceful harmony?

No offense, but who cares?

I do. Aren't you proud of our friends?

OK. Don't answer that last question...

graz
09-22-2009, 08:07 PM
Thanks for your support Doc (offical bhtv Apollo project defender).
Although it seems less than professional for you to suggest that my man nikki not listen.:)

TwinSwords
09-22-2009, 08:12 PM
Hey, this is great!

Nikki & Preppy,
Congratulations to you both for your fine performances and for being the first diavloggers to launch this new feature. I look forward to seeing you both back in the future.

kidneystones
09-22-2009, 08:15 PM
Okay. Now to the topic. Preppy likely made the right choice to go to J-school. There are a lot of good programs and they do teach people how to write.

Ethan and Preppy both moan from the same song-book; so there's something to the complaint about a lack of conflict. James O' Keefe and Hannah Giles demonstrate precisely how to break a story. Their efforts point the way forward.

Crap commentary on the events of the day can be found at bhtv and just about every other for free outlet on the internet. Really moving stories about real people; stories that move us to either outrage or sympathy make careers.

Every accomplished artist or writer I know (and I know lots) works their media. The choice is simple: work as an independent and starve; or work for a commercial outfit providing content or services and eat better. Either route, hard work and imagination are required to deliver the goods. My guess is James and Hannah trudged into a lot of offices before they got the footage they wanted.

Lace up them boots and go find your stories.

Best of luck!

osmium
09-22-2009, 08:16 PM
Wow, fantastic. Big ups, nikkibong and preppymc.

AemJeff
09-22-2009, 08:18 PM
Hey, this is great!

Nikki & Preppy,
Congratulations to you both for your fine performances and for being the first diavloggers to launch this new feature. I look forward to seeing you both back in the future.

I agree with Twin. Well done. And I don't see anything wrong with a little self-promotion, as long as it's done with a bit of grace.

TwinSwords
09-22-2009, 08:21 PM
Crap commentary on the events of the day can be found at bhtv

Well, no one can say you lack for self-awareness!

look
09-22-2009, 08:36 PM
Congrats on your on-camera aplomb.

kidneystones
09-22-2009, 09:30 PM
Wapo details the methodical work (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/17/AR2009091704805.html?nav=hcmodule) of James and Hannah. Maybe bong and preppy can collaborate on a follow-up piece.

What's the bet there are Acorn employess willing to blame the entire nightmare on Fox news and Glenn Beck?

Go git'em.

TwinSwords
09-22-2009, 09:31 PM
Unfortunately, the link to Preppy's blog on the diavlog page is broken, but if you are interested, you can access it here:

http://instantcappuccino.blogspot.com

AemJeff
09-22-2009, 09:33 PM
Wapo details the methodical work (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/17/AR2009091704805.html?nav=hcmodule) of James and Hannah. Maybe bong and preppy can collaborate on a follow-up piece.

What's the bet there are Acorn employess willing to blame the entire nightmare on Fox news and Glenn Beck?

Go git'em.

What were the odds that kidney would find a non-sequitur tying together this diavlog and one or more of his obsessions?

graz
09-22-2009, 09:39 PM
But Jeff, dontcha see that it's in service to the career building of the bong and preppy? He comments because he cares.

TwinSwords
09-22-2009, 09:57 PM
But Jeff, dontcha see that it's in service to the career building of the bong and preppy? He comments because he cares.

ROFL.

I suppose if Nikki and Preppy want to become activists in the cause of ultraconservative extremism, kidney might have a point. Hard work and determination are not what made O'Keefe and Giles the talk of the wingnutosphere. It was their service to the agenda of the far right that did that.

kidneystones
09-22-2009, 10:22 PM
graz writes...

I don't. Ethan had a paying gig in Shanghai where he could have done any number of other projects while getting paid to hone his craft. Instead, he couldn't manage his temper and quit.

Preppy invested in a j-school degree and can't get work. She's going to need to learn a lot more about political performance art; or get a job churning out crap like ninety-nine percent of paid writers.

Poor befuddled Jeff evidently can't discover any connection between a twenty-minute discussion on the state of journalism today and the O' Keefe/Giles story.

Sweet Jesus, James and Hannah are all-over the networks and the front-pages, right where nikki and preppy don't want to be.

AemJeff
09-22-2009, 10:26 PM
Seriously, except for the length and the ersatz psychedelica, this was essentially indistinguishable from any other wonky journalist face-to-face hosted by this site. I doubt that Apollo could have had a better debut.

(I know I commented earlier, but connection problems had been in the way of watching all of it at once.)

PreppyMcPrepperson
09-22-2009, 10:29 PM
Are these two on a date, and through the power of new technology we're eavesdropping?


Well, I never got my free dinner (http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/22498?&in=44:25&out=45:12)...so I'm not sure it counts ;)

To the point about our agreeing too much, I promise to bring Althouse levels of contrarianism-for-its-own-sake next time.

Thanks for the heads-up about the blog link TwinSwords--I've asked the authorities to fix.

Also: One thought I had after we hung up was that we finished by saying how short the amateur time limit is, but actually when BHTV first got going, the Bob and Mickey 'vlogs were just as short.

AemJeff
09-22-2009, 10:43 PM
graz writes...

I don't. Ethan had a paying gig in Shanghai where he could have done any number of other projects while getting paid to hone his craft. Instead, he couldn't manage his temper and quit.

Preppy invested in a j-school degree and can't get work. She's going to need to learn a lot more about political performance art; or get a job churning out crap like ninety-nine percent of paid writers.

Poor befuddled Jeff evidently can't discover any connection between a twenty-minute discussion on the state of journalism today and the O' Keefe/Giles story.

Sweet Jesus, James and Hannah are all-over the networks and the front-pages, right where nikki and preppy don't want to be.

Duh, what?

graz
09-22-2009, 10:45 PM
Great job by the way. Jeff just made the point that your chat was worthy of the front page... without the distracting imagery.

My disappointment is that the original point of the dueling commenters (Apollo) on video was going to be a new and different feature. You and Ethan offered a seamless presentation that deserves promotion to the big leagues. But it was not unlike the format of "regular" dv's.

http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=2825
04-01-2009, 11:15 AM
nikkibong

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Shanghai & Portland, OR
Posts: 746
Re: Apollo Project
Quote:
If you have not yet watched Bob and Mickey's latest diavlog and don't know what the Apollo Project is, you can hear Bob describe it at this dingalink (http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/18683?in=72:52&out=79:15).

Personally, I think it's a great idea, and I hope at least a few of BHTV's commenters take Bob up on the offer. My concern is that forum dwellers tend to be introverts — not exactly the kind of person who is itching to appear before the world on camera.

The success of the Apollo Project depends, I think, on finding those (few?) commenters who are at the more extroverted end of the personality spectrum. Hopefully BHTV's forum is atypical and has a higher than usual proportion of extroverted commenters, because there are a lot of people here who have great minds, excellent insight, and many interesting things to say.
As a guy who is occasionally prone to bouts of loud-mouthery, showmanship, acting, and - ok, I'll admit it - karaoke, I'm not sure that I agree with this characterization. Just because some people enjoy expressing themselves in online forums does not mean they don't like to express themselves elsewhere.

My concern with the Apollo Project is with its rather elitist attitude; pitting 'true' bloggingheads against 'amateurs.' I dare say many of our commenters offer more expertise on a wider range of subjects than many of the prolific 'heads . . .

It's long been a dream of mine to appear on bh.tv, but not as a lowly, amateur commenter . . .

kidneystones
09-22-2009, 10:46 PM
I read Maha's piece in the Columbia journal. Maha, I like you're writing. Your blog could use some work. You'll doubtless be reviled by Acorn's tiny minions, here, for even reading this critique, but here's my two cents:

I love your blogname and your voice, both in print and on camera. You're writing is generally concise and clear. On camera you appear smart and pretty: two pluses, masking notwithstanding.

Blog revision. You're showing early Greenwald when you should be thinking current Sullivan and TPM. The font is way too small for that color scheme. Move to white for a text background and cut about eighty percent of the readable text. Talkleft buries every single post beneath a There's more barrier, forcing all readers to click, including repeat visitors. Sullivan and Marshall both employ the same strategy.

InstantCappucino needs a higher profile and an snappy logo of some sort. Wonkette worked early with a cartoon image. You can, too. Add images, either your own or from you-tube links. Compartmentalize your page to make it much more like a magazine than a blog. You've got a lot to say. Limit the available choices to: (eg) media, politics, the left. the right and focus our attention on these choices using images and teasers.

Invite collaborators and guest posters. Travel, if the opportunity presents itself. You'll see yourself and your world far more clearly, IMHO, through the prism of other cultures.

I've actually stumbled on your blog before, although I can't honestly recall when. The name stuck and that's great. Please take the critique in good faith. If you haven't read McCluhan, give him a try. Or a re-read. He's got useful things to say about 'hot' and 'cold' media.

Best of luck!

uncle ebeneezer
09-22-2009, 10:50 PM
Hey guys, just want to applaud the fine work in this experimental new project. I enjoyed it. The audio was stuttering a bit when I watched but I'm not sure if this was just a technical glitch.

PM- one Althouse on bhTv is already one too many. Keep being yourselves.

PS love the purple!!

Simon Willard
09-22-2009, 10:54 PM
OK, I'm really confused about this masking thing. To quote BHtv:
Note how our fancy masking technology lets them maintain some semblance of the anonymity that these names have long conferred.
What kind of anonymity is there when these diavloggers state their real name and location, either on the BH site or through their posted links? What's the real reason for the masking?

Don't get me wrong -- I admire their courage for coming on. (I would wear a sack over my head to do it.) But if your anonymity is blown, why not show your face?

It occurred to me that maybe BHtv doesn't want commenters to share the same stage used by "real" people, like, say, Pinkercorn. But it seems to me that burying the commenter diavlogs in a corner of the site addresses this concern.

Or perhaps BHtv can't afford to send out the same team of make-up artists who prepare Bob and Mickey for prime time.

Whatfur
09-22-2009, 11:01 PM
Bong was smokin. (Korean nickname...ha...good one. ;o) )

Preppy rolled!

Nicely Done!

PreppyMcPrepperson
09-22-2009, 11:03 PM
Ethan, if we collaborate on any stories, I insist on the byline PreppyBong.

AemJeff
09-22-2009, 11:04 PM
OK, I'm really confused about this masking thing. To quote BHtv:

What kind of anonymity is there when these diavloggers state their real name and location, either on the BH site or through their posted links? What's the real reason for the masking?

Don't get me wrong -- I admire their courage for coming on. (I would wear a sack over my head to do it.) But if your anonymity is blown, why not show your face?

It occurred to me that maybe BHtv doesn't want commenters to share the same stage used by "real" people, like, say, Pinkercorn. But it seems to me that burying the commenter diavlogs in a corner of the site addresses this concern.

Or perhaps BHtv can't afford to send out the same team of make-up artists who prepare Bob and Mickey for prime time.

I imagine that not everybody wants to show their face clearly. If you choose use your real name, that's on you, I think. Some commenters use their real names as handles. I think it might be an issue, if some participants are presented clearly, and others aren't. Certainly it's true that that might appear to be the case. So, if BhTV wants to be as inclusive as possible and wants to make good faith effort to be fair, this seems (to me, anyway) like a reasonable policy, at least to begin with.

PreppyMcPrepperson
09-22-2009, 11:08 PM
Thanks, Kidney. All good advice, and actually linked to the one professionally-useful thing I did learn in J-School, which was how to set up a legit writer's website. Somehow, in my zealous summer of sending out pitch letters for freelance articles, I never got around to setting one up, but it's on the agenda and will, with any luck, look something like what you describe.

PreppyMcPrepperson
09-22-2009, 11:18 PM
Unfortunately, the link to Preppy's blog on the diavlog page is broken, but if you are interested, you can access it here:

http://instantcappuccino.blogspot.com

Link is fixed now.

TwinSwords
09-22-2009, 11:23 PM
Also: One thought I had after we hung up was that we finished by saying how short the amateur time limit is, but actually when BHTV first got going, the Bob and Mickey 'vlogs were just as short.

True. Good point. I've always been a fan of the longer diavlogs; if a diavlog is worth listening to it the first place, it doesn't bother me if it goes for 60-80 minutes. It almost felt to me like you and Nikki were just getting rolling when the time ran out. I hope that eventually Bob n' Company extend the time limit to the standard 45-60 minutes.

As for another point: I've never been particularly interested in cable news/Crossfire-style fireworks-for-fireworks sake. some of the best diavlogs have been friendly conversations between people who largely agree on everything. I think the BhTV imperative to achieve conflict is misguided - but then again, my opinion is informed by nothing but my own preference. It's probably true that conflict generates more hits and sustains more interest across a larger audience.

graz
09-22-2009, 11:37 PM
.

As for another point: I've never been particularly interested in cable news/Crossfire-style fireworks-for-fireworks sake. some of the best diavlogs have been friendly conversations between people who largely agree on everything. I think the BhTV imperative to achieve conflict is misguided - but then again, my opinion is informed by nothing but my own preference. It's probably true that conflict generates more hits and sustains more interest across a larger audience.

To the point about our agreeing too much, I promise to bring Althouse levels of contrarianism-for-its-own-sake next time.


Disagreeing just to satisfy a programmer or commenter's request is silly.
Again, my expectations for a challenge between disagreeing commenters as promised by Bob was dashed. I'll get over it. It could get accustomed to a bong/preppy pairing... but why not post them on the Diavlog comments section.
Or maybe I'll just let go of the desire for some fightin' commenters. I had some dream match-ups in mind... oh well.

AemJeff
09-22-2009, 11:42 PM
...
Or maybe I'll just let go of the desire for some fightin' commenters. I had some dream match-ups in mind... oh well.

I bet there's an inverse relationship between the odds of a match-up occurring and its rank on your list!

graz
09-22-2009, 11:44 PM
Indeed!

Simon Willard
09-22-2009, 11:55 PM
.... some of the best diavlogs have been friendly conversations between people who largely agree on everything. I think the BhTV imperative to achieve conflict is misguided

I have a slightly different view. Agreement diavlogs are boring. I like people who have differing perspectives - who throw light on a subject from different directions. This doesn't have to mean conflict! The best diavloggers actually listen to their partner, they probe and challenge in a friendly way, but they don't try to win debating points.

nikkibong
09-23-2009, 12:03 AM
Thanks, graz.

Oh: and you are truly the master archival researcher. Where were you when I was working on my thesis??

Starwatcher162536
09-23-2009, 12:08 AM
I am not sure if the following is an insult to the normal BHeads, or a compliment to the Apollo participants:

This Apollo diavlog seemed to be no less in content per unit time then the average prime time diavlog, and certainly higher then some Ive seen.

Wonderment
09-23-2009, 01:31 AM
This is Neil Armstrong on the Apollo and Louis Armstrong in the Apollo all rolled into one.

I'm totally stoked and I haven't even watched it yet.

kidneystones
09-23-2009, 04:30 AM
Maha writes....[...]

You're most welcome. I was wandering across the tubes when I came across this Pro Publica call for independent journalists (http://www.propublica.org/about/new-propublica-reporting-network-will-recruit-citizen-journalists-for-inves).

Work of merit is recognized and rewarded in almost every case I know of, if you can reach critical readers and decision-makers. You could do worse than submit your efforts to the Pro Publica crew.

Hope this helps.

Francoamerican
09-23-2009, 05:02 AM
Seeing, more or less, the faces behind the names made me aware of how little the written word reveals of a person. I imagined nikkibong as Asian, and PreppyMcprepperson, well, as preppy.

Good luck to both of you in your journalism careers. But a word of advice: a journalist without deep or extensive knowledge in at least one field or subject is seldom worth reading.

Baltimoron
09-23-2009, 05:29 AM
I can go either way given the arguments for masking presented here. But, honestly, it hurt my eyes. It can only be worse if the background were black.

Baltimoron
09-23-2009, 06:03 AM
Props to Ethan and Maha! It's hard to be first.

That said, I'm not watching the feature a second time. Aside from the fact, that the masking hurt my eyes, it was ~20 minutes (partially at 1.4x) I want back. I wanted to be wrong, that this Apollo project was frivolous. Two under-achieving, over-educated brats kvetching about an industry they barely know is a fit subject for the bar stool.

nikkibong, my old friend, if you promise to do another diavlog on Xinjiang, I would listen. That was the one moment my heart started beating during this excruciating test.

Coming from someone who ended an internship in a city jail with a fistfight and my Army career by fucking the Supply NCO's wife and whistle-blowing another NCO - and earned respect from both episodes enough to finish out both gigs with handshakes and recommendations - both of you are just punks. What I learned from All the President's Men was, that bosses and employees have to find a way to work together, and it's the employee's responsibility. Old school bosses like Jason Robards are gems, but "Woodstein" proved themselves. My Ist Sergeant understood I was a hothead, and knew I would only respect him if he devised the right kind of punishment. You two don't even try to prove yourselves.

I'm disgusted with both of you.

kidneystones
09-23-2009, 06:23 AM
Baltimoron writes...[...]

What an asshole comment! Really, really churlish.

I'll take this opportunity, however, to argue that the Delay Dancing with the stars video is up at You-tube via TPM. (http://tpmtv.talkingpointsmemo.com/?id=3470647&ref=fpb) must go on the bhtv fp. Fantastic!

You should watch, moron. Somewhere in your travels you lost your couth and your sense of humor. This was great. Neither embarrassed bhtv or themselves. You sure know how to find misery and pain in some strange places.

WTF?

JonIrenicus
09-23-2009, 06:30 AM
Are these two on a date, and through the power of new technology we're eavesdropping?

Was I also having a flashback or was the psychedelic effect (voice as well as vision) purposeful?

Are these the bhtv junior league tryouts? McArdle does no better in transmitting her personal anecdotes.

Where is the conflict? On what subject are they disagreeing? No offense, but who cares?


This reminded me of this song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPBS7dVrE1U

Baltimoron
09-23-2009, 07:07 AM
And, your notion of an achievement is nauseatingly rock-bottom!

kidneystones
09-23-2009, 07:55 AM
moron writes...[...]

You might want to review your own bizarre claims to fame.

I can't quite bring myself to re-read it. Something about jail, screwing a co-worker's wife, and a punch-up. By your own warped metrics, the fact that you are not currently incarcerated on recovering from your wounds counts as what, exactly? A defeat?

Speaking on camera isn't easy. Ethan and Maha were well-prepared, civil, and clearly intelligent. For Ethan, that actually counts as an achievement. He's much brighter on camera. The discussion was frank and fairly-well informed.

Both set an extremely high standard for those who will follow. I'd go so far as to say: practically faultless. There will be plenty of time for bunfights and fireworks in the future, if there is a future. And there likely will be thanks to this extremely promising first time offering.

Ethan and Maha deserve our gratitude for doing an extremely creditable job.

Your mean-spirited response is as out of place as a boo during the first five minutes of an off-Broadway performance of Hamlet. Really.

My guess is both Maha and Ethan will be back. I certainly hope so.

PreppyMcPrepperson
09-23-2009, 08:18 AM
Winning link Joe. Love that movie.

TwinSwords
09-23-2009, 08:24 AM
Props to Ethan and Maha! It's hard to be first.

That said, I'm not watching the feature a second time. Aside from the fact, that the masking hurt my eyes, it was ~20 minutes (partially at 1.4x) I want back. I wanted to be wrong, that this Apollo project was frivolous. Two under-achieving, over-educated brats kvetching about an industry they barely know is a fit subject for the bar stool.

nikkibong, my old friend, if you promise to do another diavlog on Xinjiang, I would listen. That was the one moment my heart started beating during this excruciating test.

Coming from someone who ended an internship in a city jail with a fistfight and my Army career by fucking the Supply NCO's wife and whistle-blowing another NCO - and earned respect from both episodes enough to finish out both gigs with handshakes and recommendations - both of you are just punks. What I learned from All the President's Men was, that bosses and employees have to find a way to work together, and it's the employee's responsibility. Old school bosses like Jason Robards are gems, but "Woodstein" proved themselves. My Ist Sergeant understood I was a hothead, and knew I would only respect him if he devised the right kind of punishment. You two don't even try to prove yourselves.

I'm disgusted with both of you.

This is just an unbelievably nasty and inappropriate attack. Both of the Apollo Heads showed intelligence, composure, and no small measure of courage in putting themselves out here for the world to judge, and every sane, reasonable person knows it -- evidently even one of the insane and unreasonable knows it! It's a tragic day for you when you make kidneystones appear to be the reasonable one.

The good news is that your remarks reflect on no one but you.

Whatfur
09-23-2009, 08:28 AM
And, your notion of an achievement is nauseatingly rock-bottom!

This from the person holding up a fist fight, adultery, and lessons learned from a Tom Cruise movie as examples of his heights. Huh???

Baltimoron
09-23-2009, 08:33 AM
Speaking on camera isn't easy. Ethan and Maha were well-prepared, civil, and clearly intelligent. For Ethan, that actually counts as an achievement. He's much brighter on camera. The discussion was frank and fairly-well informed.

I praised them for a decent performance. I've been a panelist for two podcasts on SeoulPodcast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SeoulPodcast), and know how tough these things are. I don't even want to know how dehumanizing a video recording can be. I don't even like my picture taken, unless I'm bribed with food. Is this all we should value in this world. I beginning to think this "Apollo" stunt is a trick to turn the fractious Boards into a bum-sucking love-fest, not a way to challenge the elites. Ethan's turn to civility is self-serving.

And, this pose, that each embraced, of cynical detachment from the bourgeois world - "pigeon-holed" - is crap. If both want to be print journos, why are they selling out to video? bhTV isn't some revolutionary departure from the talking heads tv both so nonchalantly dismissed. It's a direct descendant.But, unlike some worn-out has-been on CNN, these two aren't even might-be's. Now, if Ethan comes back with some killer shtick on Xinjiang, all the while protesting he's not to be pigeon-holed, I'll give him props. Maha, though, is forgettable - and annoying at that!

I left an internship and the Army with my fists and with the better part of my anger because my superiors couldn't accept that I had decided not to remain. I worked hard even when I hated my job, because I wanted respect. In the end, I had to use my fists and my anger to communicate when words just weren't enough. Ironically, in the aftermath we all knew me better, and we all liked each other better. The poses we all had to accept just to hide the fact, that we liked each other, but had to finish the paperwork and act like hardasses and victims for the superiors, was disgusting. In the one case of the incompetent NCO, six senior NCOs thanked me for trashing their colleague, but each had to ignore and insult me. I left that unit better tan I found it. Still, no one ever understood I had no desire ever to remain in the intelligence business. I learned from my internship to stop putting myself in situations I knew were extreme and beyond my threshold of "free spaces and fresh air". They're are PEOPLE in this world: Pixellated Ethan and Maha - who knows about the real guys - aren't. Ethan and Maha are so seduced by words and the thought of themselves, they're like Tuttle in "Brazil" caught in the paper tornado. When the winds blow, there will be no substance left.

Amendment: keep the masking! Neither baby 'head displayed a pixel of sincerity and absolutely no reason why I should believe they can write a compelling story that isn't lathered in layers of insider snark and elitist irony. It's easier to believe both are an ironic representation of a human being than to accept that both are imprudent, lazy brats.

Ethan and Maha, welcome to the fraternity!

look
09-23-2009, 08:36 AM
Props to Ethan and Maha! It's hard to be first.

That said, I'm not watching the feature a second time. Aside from the fact, that the masking hurt my eyes, it was ~20 minutes (partially at 1.4x) I want back. I wanted to be wrong, that this Apollo project was frivolous. Two under-achieving, over-educated brats kvetching about an industry they barely know is a fit subject for the bar stool.

nikkibong, my old friend, if you promise to do another diavlog on Xinjiang, I would listen. That was the one moment my heart started beating during this excruciating test.

Coming from someone who ended an internship in a city jail with a fistfight and my Army career by fucking the Supply NCO's wife and whistle-blowing another NCO - and earned respect from both episodes enough to finish out both gigs with handshakes and recommendations - both of you are just punks. What I learned from All the President's Men was, that bosses and employees have to find a way to work together, and it's the employee's responsibility. Old school bosses like Jason Robards are gems, but "Woodstein" proved themselves. My Ist Sergeant understood I was a hothead, and knew I would only respect him if he devised the right kind of punishment. You two don't even try to prove yourselves.

I'm disgusted with both of you.I guess this is your application for a slot on Apollo...you're hired! I already had you pegged for a vlog with Nikki.

graz
09-23-2009, 08:47 AM
I love that song... But later in the story all is forgiven when his heart expands and order is restored.
An enlarged heart seems like a medical problem to me.

Bah Humbug!

Baltimoron
09-23-2009, 08:48 AM
Been there - in audio and that's enough- done that! Out of my system! I was sincerely interested in how this would go, and wanted to be disproved.

Bum-fucking love fests, indeed!

graz
09-23-2009, 08:48 AM
I guess this is your application for a slot on Apollo...you're hired! I already had you pegged for a vlog with Nikki.

I'd pay U.S. dollars to see it.

Baltimoron
09-23-2009, 08:49 AM
Opinion noted.

Baltimoron
09-23-2009, 08:51 AM
Find SeoulPodcast, and listen to them. Give the money to Joe, Stafford, and Jennifer! I have no need for a camera, and I'm too cheap to buy one. Ethan can do a podcast there, too!

nikkibong
09-23-2009, 08:54 AM
I'd pay U.S. dollars to see it.

Only after graz v. Irenicus...

Simon Willard
09-23-2009, 08:58 AM
You can see a photo of the lovely Maha on this page (http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/next/archives/2007/05/meet_maha.html).

look
09-23-2009, 09:14 AM
I'd pay U.S. dollars to see it.
Hey, big spender.

osmium
09-23-2009, 09:40 AM
Coming from someone who ended an internship in a city jail with a fistfight and my Army career by fucking the Supply NCO's wife and whistle-blowing another NCO - and earned respect from both episodes enough to finish out both gigs with handshakes and recommendations - both of you are just punks.

Tonight I'm gonna drive my car through a farmers market while smoking crack. Just so I can measure up.

mattcbrown
09-23-2009, 10:25 AM
Wow, congratulations, Nikki and Preppy! Excellent job.

I completely agree with what Francoamerican said: I thought NikkiBong was Asian. It makes a big difference to see people speak. It's very humanizing. It could help take some of the animosity out of the comment section, actually.

"To the point about our agreeing too much, I promise to bring Althouse levels of contrarianism-for-its-own-sake next time."

I think I just fell in love with you, Preppy.

osmium
09-23-2009, 11:50 AM
My thoughts:

1. I am really tired of discussions about the death of journalism

2. But I thought Nikkibong and PreppyMcPrepperson gave me more insight than some of the occasional numbnuts on the mainpage do on the same topic, because they are not as established.

2a. The idea that the media learned the wrong lesson from Watergate rings true to me. I think opinion is overrated (he opined). Doesn't seem to be changing though.

2b. I liked Nikkibong's account of trying to sell a piece from China, on what he thought was an under-reported story. The fact that he found it hard to get a response suggests that editors are asleep at the switch.

3. I like the purple.

4. I don't like the masking, but whatever.

Bobby G
09-23-2009, 12:35 PM
I'm sure Bob talked about this somewhere. But I'm too lazy to look it up. So I'll ask all of you: what does Bob hope for the Apollo Project? That it will be a way of finding important new voices? That it will reduce fractiousness among the commenters? That it's just kind of cool? That it's more egalitarian or democratic? Or maybe he has no particular hopes, and he just wanted to see what would happen? As a viewer, I don't know what my expectations are supposed to be. Just like when I watched Magnolia.

PreppyMcPrepperson
09-23-2009, 02:19 PM
I remember Bob discussing it with Mickey and saying it was primarily created because he thought it would be cool/fun, but secondarily, that some commenters might want to sort out disagreements through it. It seemed to me that the second 'goal' was only half-serious. I think it's frankly pretty vague at the moment, and perhaps it's up to us to figure out what we'd like to see from it and suggest as much to the authorities.

Wonderment
09-23-2009, 02:37 PM
Nikki,

Where/how did you learn Chinese? I had no idea.

nikkibong
09-23-2009, 02:57 PM
Nikki,

Where/how did you learn Chinese? I had no idea.

For four years in school, and during multiple visits to China....

Ocean
09-23-2009, 05:40 PM
I'm sure Bob talked about this somewhere. But I'm too lazy to look it up. So I'll ask all of you: what does Bob hope for the Apollo Project? That it will be a way of finding important new voices? That it will reduce fractiousness among the commenters? That it's just kind of cool? That it's more egalitarian or democratic? Or maybe he has no particular hopes, and he just wanted to see what would happen? As a viewer, I don't know what my expectations are supposed to be. Just like when I watched Magnolia.

Circus, perhaps.

kidneystones
09-23-2009, 08:36 PM
Twin burbles...[...]

It's a tragic day for you when you make kidneystones appear to be the reasonable one.

The good news is that your remarks reflect on no one but you.

How do you manage to shoot yourself in the face in back-to-back sentences? Where's nikkibong. Another Homey needs help!

Hugggs!!!!

Baltimoron
09-23-2009, 08:37 PM
I'll respond to you because I respect you, unlike many others here.

1. On #1, I distinguish between Ethan's and Maha's status and what they used that platform to say. bhTV is not so revolutionary a technology or practice, that it is an authoritative critic of journalism. And, these two youngsters, slacker mentality and all, have no authority or experience by which to evaluate it. In that sense, Ethan and Maha were a really bad caricature of what the blogosphere believes in its pollyanish fantasies it can do. Both can do better with their talents than flesh out someone else's (Wright, or the staff) ill-conceived projects for his questionable career ideas.

2. I hope there aren't twenty more of these farces. As the Behe and Young Earther episodes shows, bhTV shouldn't just complacently expand before it tidies up its brand.

Baltimoron
09-23-2009, 08:40 PM
O might be a moron, but I'm not an adolescent, sick-brained ASS as that comment demonstrates.

Baltimoron
09-23-2009, 08:45 PM
it doesn't matter how politely you put - and I apologize for ruining your rep by agreeing with you - the bad medicine. This Apollo thing is now no longer a matter of evaluation. It's now become a bad idea supported by a bum-sucking clique. Bob Wright is proving why mob democracy is bad.

Baltimoron
09-23-2009, 08:50 PM
...perhaps it's up to us to figure out what we'd like to see from it and suggest as much to the authorities.


And, the two of you did so much to derail that project, too!

look
09-23-2009, 08:55 PM
Bum-fucking love fests, indeed!That's global media juggernaut, to you.

And if you change your mind, you'll be too proud to say so, dammit.

;-)

AemJeff
09-23-2009, 08:56 PM
Twin burbles...[...]



Did you take an extra stupid pill today? Back to back, unbelievable. Where's nikki? Another of your homies shoots himself in the face.

Hugggs!!!!

All that vitriol and yet not a drop of wit. It must suck to be you.

Baltimoron
09-23-2009, 08:56 PM
If you think your fantasies and my life are equivalent, you need psychiatric treatment. The Army has a Sergeant York fixation, and it feeds it with hotheads. Soldiers are supposed to kill, after all.If you can't keep the military-civilian split straight, both society and the military are doomed.

Baltimoron
09-23-2009, 08:57 PM
I hope you're being paid for that fellatio!

look
09-23-2009, 09:02 PM
I hope you're being paid for that fellatio!
...two days in a row.

AemJeff
09-23-2009, 09:14 PM
And, the two of you did so much to derail that project, too!

I don't get it. You made it pretty clear you didn't like this idea when it was announced. So why all dump all of this aggression into the thread and directly at the kids that had the stones to put themselves out there? What's the point?

look
09-23-2009, 09:34 PM
the whole point of bhtv is for journalists, authors, etc., to get free face time and for Bob to develop a successful business.

kidneystones
09-23-2009, 09:35 PM
moron writes...[...]

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I'll make this brief. I know plenty of solid, well-adjusted people. You're not one of them.

I fear nobody here much cares about your biography and all your 'troubles' with authority, you big, raw, un-tamed spirit, you.

Your frustrations do not justify this outburst. The consensus view, and I say this as an Apollo skeptic, is that Ethan and Maha did a superb job.

kidneystones
09-23-2009, 09:48 PM
Did you even understand how that worked?

You were in such a rush to dis me you missed the edit. Busy fingers. The time-stamps tell a fascinating story. Never miss a chance, do you?

I'm writing about the dv and you and Twin and graz follow after offering what? Love? As for your suggestion...

It does suck to be me. At least if 'sucking' means a life full of emotional, personal, intellectual, and career riches. I'm one of the luckiest people I know, actually, not to put too fine a point on it. And I'm not alone.

I'm on my way out the door to the pool. You're not getting any more exercise now than you were last time we chatted, are you? Bad for the ticker, Jeff.

Old dogs, new tricks and all I suppose.

Have a better day!

AemJeff
09-23-2009, 10:05 PM
Did you even understand how that worked?

You were in such a rush to dis me you missed the edit. Busy fingers. The time-stamps tell a fascinating story. Never miss a chance, do you?

I'm writing about the dv and you and Twin and graz follow after offering what? Love? As for your suggestion...

It does suck to be me. At least if 'sucking' means a life full of emotional, personal, intellectual, and career riches. I'm one of the luckiest people I know, actually, not to put too fine a point on it. And I'm not alone.

I'm on my way out the door to the pool. You're not getting any more exercise now than you were last time we chatted, are you? Bad for the ticker, Jeff.

Old dogs, new tricks and all I suppose.

Have a better day!

Time stamps? (as of 9:55pm EDT)
kidney - last edited @ 8:45pm EDT
jeff - unedited, posted @ 8:56pm EDT

That's quite the damning pattern! Thanks for pointing that out, man!

While we're on the subject, let's postulate I had, in fact, posted prior to you amending the post. What do you think that would have proved? I genuinely don't get your (moot) point.

I'm currently drinking a rum tonic and eating my wife's handmade chocolates. Do you really think that references to the (openly acknowledged) state of my health score points against me? I reiterate: all that vitriol and not even a soupçon of wit. I'll stick with the sense of "to suck" I originally intended.

kidneystones
09-23-2009, 10:15 PM
Chocolate, sedentary life, and alcohol. Wow.

Trifecta for diabetics with heart disease. Not a hint of bad judgment in that choice. No wonder you want the tax-payer to go on the hook for your medical condition.

Thanks, however, for confirming once again your keen interest in moi. Why you bother with me, I'll never know. Try yoga. You can do the basic forms while watching tv.

Have a good one!

AemJeff
09-23-2009, 10:30 PM
Chocolate, sedentary life, and alcohol. Wow.

Trifecta for diabetics with heart disease. Not a hint of bad judgment in that choice. No wonder you want the tax-payer to go on the hook for your medical condition.

Thanks, however, for confirming once again your keen interest in moi. Why you bother with me, I'll never know. Try yoga. You can do the basic forms while watching tv.

Have a good one!

kidney, your posts manifest a singular combination of bile and obsequiousness leavened with overweening self-regard, all expressed in clumsy, puerile metaphors with all the sophistication of an unhappy seventeen year-old. Of course I take an interest. You affect the tone and the quality of this place, and I like it here.

Baltimoron
09-23-2009, 11:34 PM
The consensus view, and I say this as an Apollo skeptic, is that Ethan and Maha did a superb job.

Just what a fascist would say!

Baltimoron
09-23-2009, 11:42 PM
To stop a "cool, fun" distraction dead in its tracks, before any other slackers get it into their heads that this is better than...anything. Am I bumming you out? Do I make you all feel bad? There's no crying at Bloggingheads!!

I'm even further disgusted by this creeping mobocratic, do-as-we-want, bum-sucking, Bob-worshipping, bitchboy, fanboy sentiment!

AemJeff
09-23-2009, 11:46 PM
...Am I bumming you out? Do I make you all feel bad? There's no crying at Bloggingheads!!...

Dude, I'll cry if I want to.

Baltimoron
09-23-2009, 11:49 PM
On camera? That would be fitting and a net plus for Apollo based on the last performance!

Baltimoron
09-24-2009, 12:00 AM
You're an odious little groupie, too, aren't you?

TwinSwords
09-24-2009, 01:01 AM
When you guys were recording your diavlog, could you see each other (http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/18683?in=73:45&out=74:07)?



.

kidneystones
09-24-2009, 01:10 AM
moron writes...[...]

You're certainly dishing out the invective, aren't you? I mean this is well beyond the abuse that we see here, even when things get heated.

Brenda has offered up a new policy for comments. You should give it a glance. We're all trying to adhere to it, more or less.

You're clearly going in the other direction. I nominate you for a six-week time-out. Not because I don't think you have anything sensible to say. You do. But here you're just dumping on people.

Look is hardly the most combative here; but the comment about your disposition is spot-on.

You trashed this thread and everyone on it who tried to engage you.

An apology is due; and absent that a time-out.

PreppyMcPrepperson
09-24-2009, 01:43 AM
When you guys were recording your diavlog, could you see each other (http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/18683?in=73:45&out=74:07)?



.

Yep.

Baltimoron
09-24-2009, 01:48 AM
No apologies. No surrender.

Did you think I've been silent all these weeks just because I was busy?

I'd rather lose than be wrong.

PreppyMcPrepperson
09-24-2009, 02:54 AM
Doubtful--though Nikki should weigh in on this--I watched the video before I sent the file over, and it looked fine to me. I think it's because they assume that some commenters might prefer it, and think it's best to apply it universally to all Apollo-ites than selectively. Personally, I think it'd be fair to just let people choose, and if we do ten or twenty of these and everyone goes for non-mask then just drop it.

nikkibong
09-24-2009, 09:48 AM
Doubtful--though Nikki should weigh in on this--I watched the video before I sent the file over, and it looked fine to me. I think it's because they assume that some commenters might prefer it, and think it's best to apply it universally to all Apollo-ites than selectively. Personally, I think it'd be fair to just let people choose, and if we do ten or twenty of these and everyone goes for non-mask then just drop it.

Yes, the video quality looked no worse than any regular DV to me. I can't vouch for the content quality however :)

I was actually disappointed (and a bit offended) that we weren't deemed worthy enough to appear unobscured. (They didn't tell us they would be doing this beforehand.) I had even worn an ironed shirt for the occasion.

ALTHOUSE HAD A POINT! (http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/21921?in=02:55&out=03:12)

graz
09-24-2009, 10:08 AM
...I was actually disappointed (and a bit offended) that we weren't deemed worthy enough to appear unobscured. (They didn't tell us they would be doing this beforehand.)...


Maybe you can ask to have the video removed? Then they can scrub it and repost your visage in all its glory. Create something along the lines of the McWhorter/Behe controversy. To see or not to see the Apollo participants... that is the question... they failed to ask you.

Simon Willard
09-24-2009, 10:19 AM
They're ratcheting up their attack. (http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/6341/kidneystones.jpg)

ROFL !!

osmium
09-24-2009, 10:35 AM
They're ratcheting up their attack. (http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/6341/kidneystones.jpg)

yeah, that's funny. :)

look
09-24-2009, 11:42 AM
Yes, the video quality looked no worse than any regular DV to me. I can't vouch for the content quality however :)

I was actually disappointed (and a bit offended) that we weren't deemed worthy enough to appear unobscured. (They didn't tell us they would be doing this beforehand.) I had even worn an ironed shirt for the occasion.

ALTHOUSE HAD A POINT! (http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/21921?in=02:55&out=03:12)An ironed shirt? What a sell-out. I'm surprised you were surprised about the masking. I hope they already taped some additional Apollo episodes before airing yours and Preppy's, because this is not an auspicious beginning. You guys were great, and we won't let Balt's and graz's bad moods permanently affect the fun.

popcorn_karate
09-24-2009, 12:23 PM
Wow!

Nikki and Preppy, your presentation was great! Thanks to both of you for taking the plunge.

Re "death of media" - meh. I think we are heading in a positive direction from where we were say in 2000. When the NYT decided to back the Iraq war - it was lights out for any hope of stopping that debacle. They will never have that kind of cultural authority again - which is hugely positive in my opinion. that does mean probably fewer professional journalists which also seems positive to me because as they get more "professional" they usually become more and more co-opted by the various elites.

As a non-journalist its pretty easy for me to sit back and let the creative destruction roll. I do hope both of you find a niche that allows you to continue on in this field - but working real jobs on the side every now and again just might give you some needed perspective on your stories and make you more relevant.

graz
09-24-2009, 12:47 PM
Got a mouse in your pocket?
What's with the we?

Nikki needs your encouragement to perform about as little as you think I need an SSRI.

Thanks for the scolding:)

PreppyMcPrepperson
09-24-2009, 03:07 PM
The NYT coverage of the case for Iraq has become a case study in every journalism class in this country. I've read it through more times that such junk deserves--I agree, it was shameful how easily they were coopted.

But that doesn't lead me away from wanting my journalists to be professionals. I want to read coverage from people who do news, and only news, full-time because that means that person can spend all their waking hours ingesting information about the subject they cover and brings deep expertise.

That expertise only has value, however, if journalists are taught to use it. In other words, national security reporters at the Times most definitely had spent enough time doing nothing except national security to know that the WMD claims were questionable at best. But journo ethics, as taught in the 1980s, told them to print whatever their sources told them, especially if it had shock value--that's what I meant in the DV about learning the wrong lessons from Watergate.

Anyuser
09-24-2009, 03:53 PM
Preppy likely made the right choice to go to J-school. There are a lot of good programs and they do teach people how to write.I'm surprised anybody goes to j-school, I'm surprised j-schools still exist, after Michael Lewis's article for TNR back in '93. See here (http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/j-school-confidential).

PreppyMcPrepperson
09-24-2009, 04:36 PM
I'm surprised anybody goes to j-school, I'm surprised j-schools still exist, after Michael Lewis's article for TNR back in '93. See here (http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/j-school-confidential).

I won't dispute that J schools are home to a lot of meaningless navel-gazing. But it might be changing A few years ago, and long after Lewis visited, Columbia got a new dean (Nick Lemann of the New Yorker). They still have a core program where you emerge with an M.S. in Journalism and spend a lot of time working on process-- there's the myth Lewis cites that journalism is a science. You couldn't have paid me to apply to that program.

But Lemann also launched a second experimental program, where you emerge with an M.A. in a specific subject area--writing about business, or politics, or science, say. It's a smaller program and each student studies both with ex-journalist profs at the J-school, doing skills stuff, and with professors at the relevant graduate school for their field. For example, if you wanna cover business, you go take finance and strategy classes at the B-school and in corp law at the law school, and in international economic policy at the public policy school. In other words, the idea behind this program seems to be that journalists are supposed to be experts who know enough about their beats to call 'bull shit' on their sources, as well as having basic media skills (how to produce video, for example).

Columbia's not unique in this--NYU has a similar program and I'd predict we see something equivalent out of Medill (Northwestern) and Berkeley soon enough. This kind of journalism education has more value than the kind Lewis rightly derides, especially since breaking news is increasingly a commodity anyone can provide. Expertise, analysis is what professionals bring to the table.

That said, the bigger problem with J-school is that even if every school offered a subject-area program like I've described above, journalism as a field doesn't, and probably shouldn't, pay the kind of salaries that let you rationalize the cost of the degree. Other fields that require graduate education usually offer the chance of making back the investment. I was lucky enough to get a grant; I don't know if I'd have paid for this program out of pocket.

Anyuser
09-24-2009, 04:47 PM
Very informative. Thanks for this reply, and thanks for appearing on BHTV. I enjoyed your talk.

Simon Willard
09-24-2009, 05:09 PM
I can go either way given the arguments for masking presented here. But, honestly, it hurt my eyes. It can only be worse if the background were black.

I'm liking this less and less because of the masking. It's the colors. Something less saturated would be less offensive.

I want to see some more Apollos, though.

Baltimoron
09-24-2009, 08:00 PM
The question I have is the editorial process: what makes the NYT different from the WaPo? Just how simplistic was The Wire's depiction of the Baltimore Sun of the 90s in its last season?

Baltimoron
09-24-2009, 08:17 PM
I want to see some more Apollos, though.

I've made my peace with that. I see Apollo (this is my last rant: Apollo was an arrogant enough title for the moon landing program and NASA and industry insiders complained about that too. bhTV's homage is just more crap.) and the media like I deal with smoking. I'm not a smoker, and I detest the cancer clouds around me. I say this because as I was typing a rant, smoke wafted through the balcony doorway. In my current neighborhood, I'm probably the only non-smoker in the entire complex of apartments - and probably the only man who doesn't drink alcohol every day.) Judging by the secondhand smoke wafting through my windows everyday, though my opinion makes no difference: I am effectively a smoker. The media permeates my life to such a degree, whether or not its a quality corporate publication or a participant-based system is really beside the point. It's impossible for me to know where the media ends and "I" begin.

Like any other diavlog on any other given day or topic, I'll take Apollo one diavlog at a time. I have no intention to buy a camera, though, or even to do another podcast. It's a discipline like any other, and some people have a natural talent that helps.

The color scheme doesn't have to be so bright.

claymisher
09-24-2009, 08:47 PM
Rant, whine, carp, moan, we get it already.

btw, wrong Apollo:

http://auntiecarrie.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/the_apollo_theater__www_tcnj_edu_.jpg


http://www.apollotheater.org/amateur_night.html

Baltimoron
09-24-2009, 08:54 PM
Wright is certainly invoking the space program - "This is one small step for two commenters … one giant leap for commenterkind"? Read This New Ocean about the debates surrounding the naming of the program.

Bobby G
09-24-2009, 11:41 PM
Baltimoron, I can't quite tell if you're serious about your invective. Just why are you so bothered by the Apollo project? I can understand not liking it; but you seem personally put out by the whole thing (if you're not personally put out, sorry for mischaracterizing you).

Baltimoron
09-25-2009, 12:10 AM
Red Alert: has the thread where we all debated Apollo in the first place disappeared? I tried to find the link for Bobby G., but I've lost the thread.

I argued at that time Apollo was frivolous. I thought the bh staff needed to work on its own performance and the product, something the latest Behe and Young Earther controversies confirmed for me. I saw Apollo as pandering to the Boards, and a very expensive means to maintain control. It's probably worse: someone's pet project. I still hold to these arguments.

I also don't care for civility. Rancor is the cost of doing business and a mark of authenticity and honesty, as recent town hall meetings have shown. it's not that people acted out; it's that some were so dumb, and managed to get on the news here in the ROK where I have to vouch for them in front of incredulous South Koreans.I was a soldier beholden to defend a person''s right to be wrong, but I never though I'd be paid back in such small change. Some have actually had the gonads to use the term "harmony". I hear that term from South Koreans, and I can only hear "Do what we say! Don't tread on my perks! And, oh, can you do more for me because I can't!"

The right time to stop this mistake is before it starts rolling. That explains the intensity. For the record, I thought the interlocutors were professional and glib. But the substance was excruciatingly forgettable. If future duos use the ether for such self-serving drivel instead of broaching topics in Boards' threads, or taking on 'heads, or bringing original research, it will discredit the blogosphere as a sewer of pajama-clad, mommy-dependent, basement-dwelling, over-educated slackers the corporate media is banking on.

I hope I'm not too intense.

TwinSwords
09-25-2009, 12:56 AM
Red Alert: has the thread where we all debated Apollo in the first place disappeared? I tried to find the link for Bobby G., but I've lost the thread.

Is this (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=2825) the one you're looking for?

TwinSwords
09-25-2009, 01:21 AM
I argued at that time Apollo was frivolous. I thought the bh staff needed to work on its own performance and the product, something the latest Behe and Young Earther controversies confirmed for me.
Maybe, but that's not the guess I would make. My guess would be that there are one or two people on the BhTV staff who are truly enchanted by mysticism, and think it's worthwhile and fun to spend time thinking about the role magic plays in shaping the universe. Which is actually more terrifying than mere incompetence, or being overworked. But we're not going to correct the attraction to magic by reducing their workload.


I saw Apollo as pandering to the Boards
A subjective evaluation, and one that probably reveals more about you than anything existing in reality. Do you have contempt for the boards? If so, that might explain why you think any effort to highlight the opinions of commenters would be a regretable kind of pandering. I'll go on the record as saying I'm interested in hearing what ordinary folks have to say, including you. In fact, I'd go a step further: Often ordinary people are a lot more connected to reality that the blowhards, pundits, and assholes who fill the ranks of the media and the elite punditocracy. Frankly I'm amazed at the ignorance of many highly educated people. One point often made in the forums is "people I disagree with are stupid." It's important to recognize, though, that there are very many ultra-intelligent and extremely well educated people who know almost nothing about the real world and embarrass themselves every time they open their mouths. We live in a culture, now, where every pundit has an opinion on every subject, which leaves them venturing quite often into areas they know next to nothing about. Like Bob on the automobile industry. Just embarrassing to watch.


and a very expensive means to maintain control. It's probably worse: someone's pet project.
Oh jeez. Shouldn't a serious intellectual such as yourself skip arguments that are based on nothing but assumption? And assumption that fits with your existing biases? I think so.

If you're going to invent explanations out of whole cloth, maybe you should make up explanations that ara a little more generous. Such as "it's a good business plan." User generated content, e.g., Web 2.0, is all the rage these days. Surely an intellectual such as yourself knows this. See, e.g., YouTube. Or Time Magazine's 2006 Person of the Year (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_(Time_Person_of_the_Year).)


Rancor is the cost of doing business and a mark of authenticity and honesty, as recent town hall meetings have shown.
This is an assertion, not an argument. Someday you should tell us how the town hall mobs represent authenticity and honesty. They represent a lot of things; honestly ain't one of them.


The right time to stop this mistake is before it starts rolling.
Oh my god, give it a rest. It's going to go forward, and it's going to be hugely entertaining, a lot of fun, and probably at least modestly successful. Who cares if you like it? You don't have to watch it. I don't buy Britney Spears music. You don't have to watch BhTV's Apollo videos. Not everything in the market exists for your satisfaction.



But the substance was excruciatingly forgettable.
Note that you are in a tiny minority on this question. I realize you're a very serious intellectual and academic with extremly high standards, but there aren't enough brilliant people like you to supply all the content needed by the global media industry.



If future duos use the ether for such self-serving drivel instead of broaching topics in Boards' threads, or taking on 'heads, or bringing original research
Original research?!? The media is not for original research. The media is for regurgitating the conventional wisdom of the Villager set. And the extent to which one is successful is the extent to which one is capable of internalizing the prejudices and opinions of villagers, and repeating it back to other villagers with efficiency and ease. The problem is not Nikki and Prep, their gravitas, or bona fides. It's much bigger than them.

Baltimoron
09-25-2009, 01:53 AM
Thanks!

Bobby G
09-25-2009, 02:19 AM
If I'm not mistaken, is this your position?:

(1) BH.tv is good.
(2) BH.tv can be better.
(3) The Apollo Project does not make BH.tv better.
(4) The Apollo Project will make BH.tv worse.

I guess the real debate will be about (3) and (4). Personally, I think it's neat-o to see the other commenters and hear them in a debate with one another. It makes me more connected to them, and some what interested in doing it myself. And also, I love civility--I see it as generally elevating to all participants--and I see Apollo as making it more likely that we'll have more of that.

Baltimoron
09-25-2009, 02:42 AM
...we're not going to correct the attraction to magic by reducing their workload.

From what Wright said to Johnson I got the impression there was a palace coup. One or two prominent persons had decided to add the two diavlogs while Wright was on vacation. Insubordination is much more serious than incompetence. If Apollo is a staff project, then crashing it seems a good way to punish insubordination. But, if it's part of Wright's strategy, I have to wonder if it's wise just to ignore the transgression.

Do you have contempt for the boards?

They're the lesser of the two parts of the product, the diavlogs and the Boards. And, if the Boards were discontinued, I would still watch the diavlogs. I might read a commenter's blog, but I doubt I would read all.

If you're going to invent explanations out of whole cloth, maybe you should make up explanations that ara a little more generous. Such as "it's a good business plan." User generated content, e.g., Web 2.0, is all the rage these days. Surely an intellectual such as yourself knows this. See, e.g., YouTube. Or Time Magazine's 2006 Person of the Year.)

That's the one part of this I accept. But, again, the Behe and Young Earther episodes really make me wonder how much of a handle Wright has on this tiger.

Someday you should tell us how the town hall mobs represent authenticity and honesty. They represent a lot of things; honestly ain't one of them.

It's clear many of these protests are manufactured. But, I've heard many of these arguments from family, and I know the popularity of anti-tax sentiment. I think it's morally wrong, and my Korean wife can't understand this phenomenon. I could write novels on my family's own accounts of racism.

You don't have to watch it.

That's just insulting. Od course, I know I have that ability. I honestly like this site. I consider myself - and with more humility than my rhetoric might lead all to believe - the loyal opposition.

The media is not for original research.

I couldn't disagree more. Aside from eating, there's a palpable difference between the scholar or journalist who works for power or for a goal. I have my priorities. Many 'heads do too, and they bring original work here in the form of books, articles, and real experience, like Wright and Kleiman., or even Goldfarb . Success sells, and it gives someone authority. They might assume a pose to sell their product, to eat. As much as someone assumes a pose without the success, though, bhTV becomes pernicious. And, I think, that's what I was seeing in this Apollo diavlog.

Baltimoron
09-25-2009, 03:02 AM
(1) BH.tv is good.
(2) BH.tv can be better.
(3) The Apollo Project does not make BH.tv better.
(4) The Apollo Project will make BH.tv worse.

Got it!

The Apollo project is a solution to #2 I would have rejected quickly. If one wants a platform one can start a blog, even a podcast, for less expense.I also think the notion of civility in discourse discounts the passions people bring. Debating crime doesn't change the fact, that I'm going to brain the first idiot who enters my house illegally or touches my wife. Someone discussing tax policy might as well just bring his/her returns for comparison. And, if my family is involved my arguments become far less authoritative. People are both body and soul, and the idea of a neutral place where people compromise begs the question, what's the criterion for that compromise. The result isn't a better solution.

TwinSwords
09-25-2009, 07:20 AM
The media is not for original research.
I couldn't disagree more.

I rarely post when I'm getting ready for work, but at risk of being misunderstood, I better clarify that I was being entirely sarcastic and sneeringly contemptuous of contemporary journalism with my "the media is not for original research." I'd hoped this would be clear from the full context of my remarks:

"Original research?!? The media is not for original research. The media is for regurgitating the conventional wisdom of the Villager set. And the extent to which one is successful is the extent to which one is capable of internalizing the prejudices and opinions of villagers, and repeating it back to other villagers with efficiency and ease."

And note that I went on to describe this as "a problem.":

The problem is not Nikki and Prep, their gravitas, or bona fides. It's much bigger than them.

I apologize for the lack of clarity. And that said, I fully acknowledge that journalism has no other purpose that approaches the importance of original research. It's the key and core function of the fourth estate.

Still, I'm not sure BhTV diavlogs are really intended as a delivery system for original research, though I will grant that some few diavlogs have served as one of many channels for the distribution of new research, such as Kleiman's book. For the most part, though, diavlogs are for bloviating and, if a more noble justification is required, to provide a venue for civilized discourse across various ideological spectra.

Baltimoron
09-25-2009, 08:45 AM
I rarely post when I'm getting ready for work, but at risk of being misunderstood, I better clarify that I was being entirely sarcastic and sneeringly contemptuous of contemporary journalism with my "the media is not for original research." I'd hoped this would be clear from the full context of my remarks:

Gawd, I can be so simple when I'm stoked!

Simon Willard
09-25-2009, 10:12 AM
I argued at that time Apollo was frivolous. ... It's probably worse: someone's pet project. I still hold to these arguments.


It's an experiment. In 1983 MS-DOS was frivolous. In 1994 the Internet was frivolous. Then Google was frivolous. Facebook was frivolous. Twitter was frivolous. (OK, Twitter is still frivolous.) If you are smart, you try new things. To argue that this is absorbing the precious differential of resources that will make or break BHtv is crazy.

The right time to stop this mistake is before it starts rolling. That explains the intensity. For the record, I thought the interlocutors were professional and glib. But the substance was excruciatingly forgettable. If future duos use the ether for such self-serving drivel instead of broaching topics in Boards' threads, or taking on 'heads, or bringing original research, it will discredit the blogosphere as a sewer of pajama-clad, mommy-dependent, basement-dwelling, over-educated slackers the corporate media is banking on.

I agree with your description of this diavlog. It didn't live up to my hopes. But I'm still optimistic. I don't see any "mistake" that needs to be stopped.

Your comment about discrediting the blogosphere is truly bizarre! The "blogosphere" never had great credibility with me. It is indeed full of basement-dwelling slackers; always has been and always will be. Even some of the 'heads come across like that to me. But there are also insightful people everywhere. Some will pop up here on Apollo.

I'm not expecting original research. I'm expecting probing questions and creative arguments from smart people who have their own unique backgrounds and perspectives.

Baltimoron
09-25-2009, 06:12 PM
I agree with your description of this diavlog. It didn't live up to my hopes.

Agreed.

rfrobison
09-26-2009, 09:52 AM
Hats off to both of you. You'll be a tough act to follow, no doubt!

A thought or two about the print media. I've just returned to a copy editing position with an English-language daily in Japan (gonna withhold the name just in case somebody's reading this who could put my job in jeopardy) after a stint with a Web-based newswire and I share the general lament about the decline of newspapers generally. The publication is hemorrhaging red ink and the future looks pretty grim.

But I wonder if Nikki's diagnosis about the death of the regional paper isn't precisely the wrong one. The paper I work for tries to do it all: world news, national news, arts, sports (foreign and domestic), and some "weekend scene" type pages as as well for the people living in Tokyo.

The problem is this: People can get their international news for free on the Net; the domestic news coverage is about 85 percent wire copy translated (usually badly) from Japanese, so it's three days old; and as for the cultural stuff, there's generally edgier stuff (reviews, arts, personal ads, classifieds, etc.), available in free magazines tailor-made for that purpose.

Who's left in terms of readership? Japanese students of English who respect the publication's name and storied history, a few embassies that print up inserts every so often singing their country's praises.

Job ads are pretty much gone now. The only buyers of space are those either too rich to care or too slow to see that the action has moved online.

So what's the solution? Heck if I know. But for a start, I'd like to see my newspaper hire a bunch of reporters--ones who can actually do original reporting and not just me-too stuff that you can see in the Japanese press, drop (or seriously scale back) their international news and sports coverage, and become the LOCAL, indispensable news source for people living in Japan (especially Tokyo) who can't read the vernacular press. To pay for that they'd have to switch to a weekly, maybe (more job losses!), but it seems to me more localism, not less, is the way out--if there is one at all.

I seem to recall reading about a newspaper in Arkansas--The Democrat (?) I believe, which took that approach and has managed to weather the storm pretty well thus far.

Whew, that was longer-winded than I intended.

Any thoughts out there?

Eli Lake
09-26-2009, 10:26 AM
Congratulations, Mazel Tov, Mabrouk to both of you. I watched this and thought I was watching a regular diavlog. Shrewd points Preppy about the decline of journalism and the egotism of journalism post-watergate. Also all too true about journalism school. Nikkibong (AKA Ethan) I hear you about fact-checking for free. Regardless a strong piece in the Irving Kristol issue of the Standard. Good stuff. Anyway I would watch more of these Bob!

Eli

PreppyMcPrepperson
09-26-2009, 03:08 PM
Thanks, Eli.

PreppyMcPrepperson
09-26-2009, 03:11 PM
But I wonder if Nikki's diagnosis about the death of the regional paper isn't precisely the wrong one...it seems to me more localism, not less, is the way out--if there is one at all.

I seem to recall reading about a newspaper in Arkansas--The Democrat (?) I believe, which took that approach and has managed to weather the storm pretty well thus far.

I agree that local news has more value than ever right now, but Nikki was distinguishing the local paper from the regional paper. A regional paper does exactly what the paper you currently work for does--tries to meld local with national stories, and THAT model is a goner now.

Wonderment
09-26-2009, 03:56 PM
I watched this and thought I was watching a regular diavlog.

How did you account for the visual effects? Did you think you the socialist government put LSD in the water supply?

Just kidding, Eli. You are a real mensch for checking in and encouraging the Apollonians (and without sounding consdescending!)

rfrobison
09-26-2009, 05:07 PM
it doesn't matter how politely you put - and I apologize for ruining your rep by agreeing with you - the bad medicine. This Apollo thing is now no longer a matter of evaluation. It's now become a bad idea supported by a bum-sucking clique. Bob Wright is proving why mob democracy is bad.

What a pompous, self-important thing to say. Who died and made you arbiter of what's meritorious and what's not? I, for one, thought the discussion was serious, worthwhile and conducted with professionalism.

Nobody is tying you up and forcing you to watch "open mic night" on Bhtv. If you don't like it, do something else with your time and spare us your petty sniping.

Or maybe you're just jealous.

Baltimoron
09-26-2009, 05:09 PM
Your opinion is noted.

rfrobison
09-26-2009, 05:25 PM
[Baltimoron Quoting the Stones]: "...'cause I'm in need of some restraint."

Agree with that last bit, anyhow, but better make that plural.

nikkibong
09-26-2009, 05:50 PM
The prepster beat me to it - I was describing reginonal papers. You are certainly correct in describing the continued need for hyperlocal news. In fact, I've read that local newspapers have weathered the advertising crisis relatively well.

It's regional papers like the Providence Journal , or the daily in my adoptive hometown, the Oregonian, that appear nearly obsolete: they're little more than a collection of vintage AP articles, the Family Circus, and just a few local stories. Indeed, regional papers have trimmed their staffs so much that there is very little of the local news that you describe.

Thanks for the your kind words about the DV, though!

P.S. I think I know what newspaper you work for...but don't worry, your secret is safe with me!

nikkibong
09-26-2009, 05:51 PM
Thank you, Eli!

Let me know if you need someone to fact check your articles ...

for a price!

:)

rfrobison
09-26-2009, 06:01 PM
It's regional papers like the Providence Journal , or the daily in my adoptive hometown, the Oregonian, that appear nearly obsolete: they're little more than a collection of vintage AP articles, the Family Circus, and just a few local stories. Indeed, regional papers have trimmed their staffs so much that there is very little of the local news that you describe.


Or "The Rocky Mountain News" (my hometown paper), which closed up shop about a year ago.

[SIGH]

rfrobison
09-26-2009, 09:40 PM
Link is: here (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203440104574400582081349944.html)

PreppyMcPrepperson
09-26-2009, 10:49 PM
I thought of this thread when I read this piece this AM. I think Kann is in essence right that the news media would be in a very different place if the Times, WaPo and Tribune papers had gone down a subscription road together. But it's water under the bridge.

Having made the mistakes they made, I don't know if there's an opportunity to recover--how would consumers react to having to pay for things they have enjoyed for free up to now? We'll soon find out, but I'm skeptical about it working. And if consumers balk at subscriptions, what other model do we have?

AemJeff
09-26-2009, 11:08 PM
I thought of this thread when I read this piece this AM. I think Kann is in essence right that the news media would be in a very different place if the Times, WaPo and Tribune papers had gone down a subscription road together. But it's water under the bridge.

Having made the mistakes they made, I don't know if there's an opportunity to recover--how would consumers react to having to pay for things they have enjoyed for free up to now? We'll soon find out, but I'm skeptical about it working. And if consumers balk at subscriptions, what other model do we have?

Using the word "mistake" doesn't really seem to me to get at the underlying truth regarding the decision to provide web access for free. There was, so far as I'm able to see, little or no possibility that a subscription model would have been viable at the the time that newspapers were deciding that having a substantial online presence was going to be necessary. WSJ, Slate, Salon, and Times Select all gave the idea a go. (And I was a subscriber to both Slate and Salon at one time or another) I'm not sure what the status of WSJ online is currently, but I know of very few general interest publications that managed to make a viable go of that.

rfrobison
09-27-2009, 01:16 AM
I'm not sure what the status of WSJ online is currently, but I know of very few general interest publications that managed to make a viable go of that.

Jeff: In answer to your question, the WSJ is one of the few mass-circulation newspapers that makes a profit from its Web-only subscribers. Couldn't tell you how much, though. The Journal, however, specializes in business and financial news. I suspect many of those subscriptions are themselves corporate. Not sure how applicable their model would be to publications aimed at a more general readership.

I'd be curious to know if my idol, "The Economist," makes any money from its Web site...

Baltimoron
09-27-2009, 01:55 AM
I'd be curious to know if my idol, "The Economist," makes any money from its Web site...

I thought I knew that answer until I read this synopsis (http://www.campaignlive.co.uk/news/Features/936577/APG-Creative-Strategy-Awards---Economist-let-mind-wander-AMV-BBDO/).

I wasn't aware of a new business campaign. The last time I renewed my subscription - I've read the magazine since 1985 and subscribed since the late 80s except for my Army years - I knew the magazine was in the black. As of June this year, it is still profitable (http://www.mediaweek.co.uk/news/914893/Economist-Group-posts-profits-56m-warns-tough-year/?DCMP=ILC-SEARCH). This was a selling point, because I don't want to give money to a loser. It's important to note, though, that The Economist is just one publication among a fairly focused empire, although it did just acquire Congressional Quarterly. Now, though, I'm a bot nervous about this new campaign. Yet, I like the notion of a business mag that takes chances and in such a deliberate way..

nikkibong
09-27-2009, 07:18 AM
I've read the magazine since 1985 and subscribed since the late 80s except for my Army years - I knew the magazine was in the black. As of June this year, it is still profitable (http://www.mediaweek.co.uk/news/914893/Economist-Group-posts-profits-56m-warns-tough-year/?DCMP=ILC-SEARCH). This was a selling point, because I don't want to give money to a loser.

So, following this bit of uh, shall we dub it "Moron Logic?," have you gone and purchased your subscription to Food Channel Magazine (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/business/media/01hearst.html) yet?

I don't like the Economist at all; it's more of a cultural signifier (look at me!) than a magazine that people actually read for content. The content is , shall we say . . . boring? (I like the redesigined "we're just like the Economist!" Newsweek even less)

The Economist: the magazine for insecure wannabee intellectuals everywhere.

rfrobison
09-27-2009, 08:09 AM
I don't like the Economist at all; it's more of a cultural signifier (look at me!) than a magazine that people actually read for content. The content is , shall we say . . . boring? (I like the redesigined "we're just like the Economist!" Newsweek even less)

The Economist: the magazine for insecure wannabee intellectuals everywhere.

To each his own, Nikki. Don't much care whether people see me as an intellectual or not. I just appreciate a magazine (or "newspaper" as they prefer to be called) that doesn't dumb itself down and fill its pages with fluff, assuming that readers have the attention span of a gnat and the comprehension level of a sixth-grader.

I also appreciate a magazine that staunchly, cogently, and consistently defends free markets and freedom more broadly.

And considering how much a subscription costs (on my far-below-median-target-reader-income), I feel vaguely guilty if I don't read pretty much the whole thing every week--though I find myself skimming through the Britain section and skipping the books and arts section entirely most of the time.

Baltimoron
09-27-2009, 08:15 AM
it's more of a cultural signifier

Gee, isn't that trite snark! Did you get that from The Atlantic (The Snobs Over Here Rag?) and its unread, unprofitable stable? If one counts its half-owner, FT, this is one of the world's best juggernauts for opinion and news. The mag's neo-liberal, optimistic editorializing is refreshing and consistent. That The Economist regularly warned against overvalued property values only proved its mettle. Democracy in America is an excellent blog. The intelligence units and econ stats are quite useful. Americans' anti-intellectual fits had some validity in 1820. Now Americans write the same bad literature and use the same bad German university organization. Between oligopolistic multinationals and snooty bankers, rags that sell poisonous food and mags that advocate for population reduction, celebrity hounds versus no bylines, deadly dull objective versus spirited and funny, I'll take the latter. Mix with a few blogs, like Daily Kos, or The Skeptics' Guide podcast, and its a stimulating day.

And then, there's the fact it is long: I ride the bus daily sometimes four times. I need the volume. It's also loyalty: my adviser asked undergrads to read a domestic and an international paper everyday. The Economist and WaPo were my choices. I also subscribe to Foreign Policy, instead of the WaPo. I will also always be grateful that the editorials put a graceful tone to the ponderous lectures in Poli Econ and economics classes. It's still just fun to read every Friday.

No, if I wanted a signifier, I'd read the Economic Daily (gukje kyeongje) in the ROK. The Economist just looks like any other English-language mag here.

bjkeefe
09-27-2009, 08:30 AM
So, following this bit of uh, shall we dub it "Moron Logic?," have you gone and purchased your subscription to Food Channel Magazine (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/business/media/01hearst.html) yet?

I don't like the Economist at all; it's more of a cultural signifier (look at me!) than a magazine that people actually read for content. The content is , shall we say . . . boring? (I like the redesigined "we're just like the Economist!" Newsweek even less)

The Economist: the magazine for insecure wannabee intellectuals everywhere.

Well, that post didn't do much for your credibility, particularly the part I bolded.

Tell me, nikki, do you say stupid shit like this because you actually believe it, or is this just part of trying to build your brand by being "provocative?" You come off like someone whose goal in life is to become an intern at Slate.

nikkibong
09-27-2009, 08:32 AM
Gee, isn't that trite snark! Did you get that from The Atlantic (The Snobs Over Here Rag?) and its unread, unprofitable stable? If one counts its half-owner, FT, this is one of the world's best juggernauts for opinion and news. The mag's neo-liberal, optimistic editorializing is refreshing and consistent. That The Economist regularly warned against overvalued property values only proved its mettle. Democracy in America is an excellent blog. The intelligence units and econ stats are quite useful. Americans' anti-intellectual fits had some validity in 1820. Now Americans write the same bad literature and use the same bad German university organization. Between oligopolistic multinationals and snooty bankers, rags that sell poisonous food and mags that advocate for population reduction, celebrity hounds versus no bylines, deadly dull objective versus spirited and funny, I'll take the latter. Mix with a few blogs, like Daily Kos, or The Skeptics' Guide podcast, and its a stimulating day.

And then, there's the fact it is long: I ride the bus daily sometimes four times. I need the volume. It's also loyalty: my adviser asked undergrads to read a domestic and an international paper everyday. The Economist and WaPo were my choices. I also subscribe to Foreign Policy, instead of the WaPo. I will also always be grateful that the editorials put a graceful tone to the ponderous lectures in Poli Econ and economics classes. It's still just fun to read every Friday.

No, if I wanted a signifier, I'd read the Economic Daily (gukje kyeongje) in the ROK. The Economist just looks like any other English-language mag here.

Again with the strange fealty to "success." Do you root for the Lakers and the Yankees as well? Who gives a damn whether the Atlantic turns a profit? (Does BHTV??) And I'll be the first to admit that it ain't what it used to be....for one major reason (www.andrewsullivan.com)...but it's still a much more engaging than the stultifying, calcified Economist.

(BTW, I love the FT - for obvious reasons (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/a654cbc0-39ab-11dd-90d7-0000779fd2ac,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=htt p%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2Fa654cbc0-39ab-11dd-90d7-0000779fd2ac.html%3Fnclick_check%3D1&_i_referer=&nclick_check=1).)

If profit is simply a must for you, you should be happy to hear that I subscribe to Esquire, which has consistently engaging - and hilarious! - writing.

Oh, and when I lived in Korea, I read the Moon Hua Ilbo (Culture Daily.) It was really good for both a) appearing intellectual and b) working on my Korean.

nikkibong
09-27-2009, 08:34 AM
To each his own, Nikki. Don't much care whether people see me as an intellectual or not. I just appreciate a magazine (or "newspaper" as they prefer to be called) that doesn't dumb itself down and fill its pages with fluff, assuming that readers have the attention span of a gnat and the comprehension level of a sixth-grader.

I also appreciate a magazine that staunchly, cogently, and consistently defends free markets and freedom more broadly.

And considering how much a subscription costs (on my far-below-median-target-reader-income), I feel vaguely guilty if I don't read pretty much the whole thing every week--though I find myself skimming through the Britain section and skipping the books and arts section entirely most of the time.

I'm glad you like it; really!

It's just not for me -- and I suspect the great majority of its "readers" read less than half of it each week.

nikkibong
09-27-2009, 08:37 AM
Well, that post didn't do much for your credibility, particularly the part I bolded.

Tell me, nikki, do you say stupid shit like this because you actually believe it, or is this just part of trying to build your brand by being "provocative?" You come off like someone whose goal in life is to become an intern at Slate.

Uh, OK.

Anyway, I stand by what I said.

Unless its 1.3 million readers are super interested in fluctuating grain prices in the Central African Republic.

rfrobison
09-27-2009, 08:37 AM
I'm glad you like it; really!

It's just not for me -- and I suspect the great majority of its "readers" read less than half of it each week.

You may be right. But as you hinted before, it ain't much of a coffee table mag. If I had that kind of money to throw away, I'd probably fly business class or buy a Beemer instead!

bjkeefe
09-27-2009, 08:39 AM
Uh, OK.

Anyway, I stand by what I said.

Unless its 1.3 million readers are super interested in fluctuating grain prices in the Central African Republic.

Spoken like someone who truly has no idea what he is talking about.

Baltimoron
09-27-2009, 08:41 AM
Again with the strange fealty to "success." Do you root for the Lakers and the Yankees as well?

Actually, I'm an Orioles and Ravens fan. Local team trumps all!

If I'm going to pay for a mag instead of just free-riding on the online version, I don't want to be filling a hole in the accounts. The Economist changed with the new editor, also. As that campaign pitch notes, there is much more multimedia, which gives correspondents a voice and name. I'd subscribe for the mag's drug liberalization stance alone.

And, It might just my poli sci background, but anything with "culture" in it reminds me of sociology, which I rank as a social science right above literature.

Baltimoron
09-27-2009, 08:44 AM
Unless its 1.3 million readers are super interested in fluctuating grain prices in the Central African Republic.

Those tables and charts saved my ass cramming for papers more than a few times. Don't knock the value of a good index!

bjkeefe
09-27-2009, 08:44 AM
Again with the strange fealty to "success." Do you root for the Lakers and the Yankees as well? Who gives a damn whether the Atlantic turns a profit? (Does BHTV??) And I'll be the first to admit that it ain't what it used to be....for one major reason (www.andrewsullivan.com)...

Here -- I fixed your link (http://firemeganmcardle.blogspot.com/).

nikkibong
09-27-2009, 08:45 AM
Here -- I fixed your link (http://firemeganmcardle.blogspot.com/).

NICE!

PreppyMcPrepperson
09-27-2009, 04:11 PM
Whoa, a lot happens on the BHTV forum if I leave my computer for a whole day. I agree that the majority of folks I know who buy the Economist read it because they want to be seen as the kind of person who reads the Economist, but I would say the same applies to the Atlantic, the New Yorker and most high-end publications. However, that doesn't mean those outlets don't also offer valuable content to the folks who bother to read 'em through.

I think what the Economist does is useful for the executives who make up a large chunk of its readership, people who can't be bothered to follow in-depth reporting in daily papers, whose own careers aren't based around in depth political knowledge and just want a quick summary of events and a ready-made neoliberal opinion to regurgitate at the water cooler.

That said, I find it hard to respect the Economist as journalism because I have always associated journalism with original reporting, and what the Economist does is just smart analysis of information reported elsewhere.

That sets it apart from the other 'cultural signifier' mags, like the Atlantic and the New Yorker, say. While a good chunk of material in the Atlantic and the New Yorker is just artful narration of previously known facts, they do occasionally spend on original reporting, so they get some credit there.

On the new Newsweek--when they launched, Meacham made a big deal of promising that it would be ALL long-form original reporting. If they had made good on that promise, it would have been an incredible mag, but so far as I can tell, it's got about the same percentage of original reporting as any of its competitors.

Baltimoron
09-27-2009, 05:41 PM
I think what the Economist does is useful for the executives who make up a large chunk of its readership, people who can't be bothered to follow in-depth reporting in daily papers, whose own careers aren't based around in depth political knowledge and just want a quick summary of events and a ready-made neoliberal opinion to regurgitate at the water cooler.

Alright, yes. In my situation, I want a weekly summary to supplement blogs and other free online content I scrape together from RSS feeds, podcasts, and places like this forum. There are plenty of stories the mag doesn't cover, but there's also more content that does get covered in its blogs. It's nice to put a little neoliberal bow on the week's events. And, in the ROK, neoliberal isn't a throwaway line. Just trying to argue with anyone that individuals and markets - the whole liberal canon of beliefs Americans dismiss as old hat - is revolutionary stuff compared to Confucianism. A protest sheet full of witty if sometimes vapid apologies for capitalism is fighting words in this context!

That said, I find it hard to respect the Economist as journalism because I have always associated journalism with original reporting, and what the Economist does is just smart analysis of information reported elsewhere.

Call it the Utne Reader of Capitalism. The FT and The Economist go together with the intelligence unit. But, the investigative journalism point was something American journalists need to address in the afe of the internet. FT/Economist can back its assertions with its research. American papers are looking for a model to replace the loss leader model. And, again, where the numbers toldd the story, as in the dot com and housing bubbles, The Economist was fearless and reported trouble for years - not doom and gloom Roubini-style - but with hope and a call for a slow deflating. No American publication, clutching corporate lifelines has the gonads or the foresight to give itself the means by which to take those stances.

PreppyMcPrepperson
09-27-2009, 06:41 PM
But the Economist is able to take those stances, and remain profitable, because some one else is generating the numbers, at a cost. I'm not saying the Economist doesn't offer value to its readers (though it doesn't suit my needs and tastes).

I'm just saying the value it offers says very little about the future of journalism. Because it doesn't offer any guidance about how the entities that generate the information are supposed to fund themselves.

Anyuser
09-27-2009, 07:38 PM
Mi amigo! What took you so long to comment on this new site? I reckon you were sulking because you weren't tapped to inaugurate the Apollo. And rightfully so! I, for one, won't be content until there is a bjkeefeCam affixed to your computer, there in your bedroom in your parents' house, continuously streaming your jejune comments, multiple, innumerous comments, on everything, everything ever spoken or written on bhtv, every fucking thing.

Baltimoron
09-27-2009, 08:01 PM
And, others said I attacked Ethan and Maha personally? I might disagree with the purposes for the Apollo Project, but calling commenters out was definitely not one of them!

Anyway, this subthread, although it's just as well placed in the third "Everything" forum, is coming along nicely -BEFORE THIS!

Baltimoron
09-27-2009, 08:36 PM
Because it doesn't offer any guidance about how the entities that generate the information are supposed to fund themselves.

Are you referring to the Rothschild contribution? Even considering that, all sections of the company are profitable, subscriptions are increasing, and products are added continuously. On a very superficial level, the brand works in a way other newspapers can't match. But, too, it's a weekly, and FT is a daily. FT is the exemplar most daily newspapers need to follow. FT also has taken a different tack on subscriptions. Again, it's the entire company that one has to look at. It's doesn't seem to be a chaebol, where one company props up another. All the pieces hold their own, and together they seem even more viable.

The investigative problem is important, crucial even I admit. But instead of saying local newspapers have to do more of it, and how can we maKe this happen, perhaps we should ask what should be the subject of investigative reporting, and isn't getting done, and how do we get that done. Maybe we need a new model, maybe not even newspapers, not just thrashing local papers for their incompetence or blaming some other third force. The Economist Group works, and right now with all these bad banks and agencies, I'm happy something is working right.

bjkeefe
09-27-2009, 09:18 PM
Mi amigo! What took you so long to comment on this new site? I reckon you were sulking because you weren't tapped to inaugurate the Apollo.

For someone who appears to spends the majority of his time on this site obsessing over me, it is nothing short of astonishing how wrong you still get everything. My position hasn't changed since the idea was first broached this past April (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=108924#post108924).

So ...

And rightfully so! I, for one, won't be content until there is a bjkeefeCam ...

... you'll have to find something else to masturbate to.

Anyuser
09-27-2009, 10:20 PM
My position hasn't changed since the idea was first broached this past April (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=108924#post108924).Well jeezus. Don't I feel the fool. I try to read each and every one of your comments (10,758 and counting!), but I guess I missed this one.

Well, I know when I'm licked. I've been scolded by somebody that includes Rolling Stones lyrics in his signature block, and by the bhtv moderator himself. This tells me two things: (i) I'm a bad, stupid man, and (ii) I need a cool signature block.

Bj (may I call you bj?), as the sun sets in California, beginning the day of atonement, before I slink off to suffer my disgrace, I testify that I am heartily sorry for having offended thee. I'm not gonna fast, though; I'm not that sorry.

Regards,
Anyuser

________________________________
do you say stupid shit like this because you actually believe it, or is this just part of trying to build your brand by being "provocative?"

bjkeefe

PreppyMcPrepperson
09-27-2009, 10:34 PM
Again, it's the entire company that one has to look at. It's doesn't seem to be a chaebol, where one company props up another. All the pieces hold their own, and together they seem even more viable.

No, you mistake my point. I understand the Economist Group is profitable as a whole. I'm saying the WHOLE ECONOMIST GROUP relies on content generated by outlets outside the Economist Group altogether, by the very loss-making newspapers whose fate we have been discussing. In other words, I have no problem with the Economist, even though I don't normally read it, but I think its existence/success is sort of irrelevant to the question of how NEWS content gets produced and funded, because The Economist is derivative of that news.

The investigative problem is important, crucial even I admit. But instead of saying local newspapers have to do more of it, and how can we maKe this happen, perhaps we should ask what should be the subject of investigative reporting, and isn't getting done, and how do we get that done. Maybe we need a new model, maybe not even newspapers, not just thrashing local papers for their incompetence or blaming some other third force.

I agree, and I ultimately don't think it's going to be done by local papers. Right now, it looks like a lot of this work, which is inherently loss-making as a process, will be done by nonprofits--ProPublica, the Center for Public Integrity, the Pulitzer Center etc. And I think there will be some local outfits akin to these larger foundations that do it on the local level. And, if they survive, through some overhaul of online advertising structures and a new subscription model, some investigative work done by the major newspapers. Indeed, the major newspapers will probably do it in conjunction with the national foundations.

bjkeefe
09-27-2009, 10:59 PM
... I'm a bad, stupid man ... I slink off to suffer my disgrace ...

Indeed, although I doubt anyone would call you a man.

Oh, and btw? Playing the Moderator!!!1! (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=94785#post94785) card is something only the lamest wingnuts resort to. Surely you've figured that out by now. Or are you really that stupid?

bahiano
09-27-2009, 11:35 PM
So I couldn't read every single comment so I don't know about ALL the chatter, but I thought it was GREAT! Ethan, seeing you on bloggingheads.tv blew my mind. We need to get in touch.

Baltimoron
09-28-2009, 01:02 AM
Right now, it looks like a lot of this work, which is inherently loss-making as a process, will be done by nonprofits--ProPublica, the Center for Public Integrity, the Pulitzer Center etc. And I think there will be some local outfits akin to these larger foundations that do it on the local level. And, if they survive, through some overhaul of online advertising structures and a new subscription model, some investigative work done by the major newspapers. Indeed, the major newspapers will probably do it in conjunction with the national foundations.

I wanted to mention ProPublica, and then students came in. Also, The Politico (see video - http://www.charlierose.com/view/content/10498). I'm looking for another one on FT.

razibkhan
09-29-2009, 11:58 PM
speaking as a regular "head," these two were better than a lot of us :-)

Winspur
10-01-2009, 12:08 PM
Interesting and sad (speaking as a member of their generation). I don't know about the images, I think animated color emoticons would be easier on the eyes.

I'm surprised the Weekly Standard paid you to write that article, Ethan. I thought for sure they wanted to obliterate the memory of Portland from our national consciousness and plant a "Cheneyville" on the ruins.

[Further thought:] The people who want Sam Adams fired for sex with a 17-year-old boy are undoubtedly (some of them) the very same who think Roman Polanski having sex with a 13-year old girl was a "youthful error."

AemJeff
10-01-2009, 12:20 PM
...[Further thought:] The people who want Sam Adams fired for sex with a 17-year-old boy are undoubtedly (some of them) the very same who think Roman Polanski having sex with a 13-year old girl was a "youthful error."

You're equating being fired with the possibility of being jailed. Whatever the merits in either case, I'm not sure what you think this implies.

Namazu
10-02-2009, 11:49 AM
Was I also having a flashback or was the psychedelic effect (voice as well as vision) purposeful?

Perhaps the reference to Warhol in the color scheme is only obvious to those above a certain age. Limiting the diavlogs to 15 minutes sharp ought to let more people in on the 'joke.'

bjkeefe
10-02-2009, 11:56 AM
Perhaps the reference to Warhol in the color scheme is only obvious to those above a certain age. Limiting the diavlogs to 15 minutes sharp ought to let more people in on the 'joke.'

While I don't vote for the time limit, that was pretty good.

graz
10-31-2009, 12:29 PM
The current issue of Harper's has a lovely obit for newspapers by Richard Rodriguez:
http://harpers.org/archive/2009/11/0082712
(Unfortunately it is behind a pay-wall - but highly recommended)

Bonus: Also Blogginhead, Andrew Bacevich has a piece on Afghanistan.

nikkibong
04-09-2010, 02:59 PM
Well, that post didn't do much for your credibility, particularly the part I bolded.

Tell me, nikki, do you say stupid shit like this because you actually believe it, or is this just part of trying to build your brand by being "provocative?" You come off like someone whose goal in life is to become an intern at Slate.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/04/what_makes_npr_and_the_economi.html

Meanwhile, both brands have morphed into statements. For better or worse, carrying the Economist is sort of like wearing a shirt that says "I'm smart and worldly and interested in knowing things about Ghana." But unlike a shirt saying all that, it actually works to convey that impression.

so tell me, brendan, does ezra klein say stupid shit like this because he actually believes it, or because he's trying to build his brand by being "provocative"?

bjkeefe
04-09-2010, 09:29 PM
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/04/what_makes_npr_and_the_economi.html

Meanwhile, both brands have morphed into statements. For better or worse, carrying the Economist is sort of like wearing a shirt that says "I'm smart and worldly and interested in knowing things about Ghana." But unlike a shirt saying all that, it actually works to convey that impression.

so tell me, brendan, does ezra klein say stupid shit like this because he actually believes it, or because he's trying to build his brand by being "provocative"?

I'm sorry, though not surprised, that you are unable to see the difference between what Ezra said and what you said, especially in context.

I do applaud your remembering my criticism, though I have to say, if your first instinct is to search out things that are superficially similar, only to hold them up and howl "JUST THE SAME!!!1!," I am going to revise my estimation of your career goals away from Slate and towards the Weekly Standard.

nikkibong
04-10-2010, 07:32 PM
I'm sorry, though not surprised, that you are unable to see the difference between what Ezra said and what you said, especially in context.

I do applaud your remembering my criticism, though I have to say, if your first instinct is to search out things that are superficially similar, only to hold them up and howl "JUST THE SAME!!!1!," I am going to revise my estimation of your career goals away from Slate and towards the Weekly Standard.

shorter badmoodbjkeefe:

the difference is that ezra klein said it, not you.

bjkeefe
04-10-2010, 07:34 PM
shorter badmoodbjkeefe:

the difference is that ezra klein said it, not you.

No, that's not the difference, but how nice to see you nervously trying to pile on with your friends look, badhat, and 'fur.

nikkibong
04-11-2010, 12:12 PM
No, that's not the difference, but how nice to see you nervously trying to pile on with your friends look, badhat, and 'fur.

subconscious bjkeefe:

crap, he has a point! resort to 'guilt' by association!!!1!

bjkeefe
04-11-2010, 12:39 PM
subconscious bjkeefe:

crap, he has a point! resort to 'guilt' by association!!!1!

Not at all. You didn't have a point. And to the extent that I bothered to respond to your word salad, it was merely to note with amusement that you tend overwhelming to vent your little fits only when other people are also indulging in bicker mode with me.

nikkibong
04-11-2010, 12:41 PM
Not at all. You didn't have a point. And to the extent that I bothered to respond to your word salad, it was merely to note with amusement that you tend overwhelming to vent your little fits only when other people are also indulging in bicker mode with me.

.

Starwatcher162536
04-30-2010, 01:06 AM
Meanwhile, both brands have morphed into statements. For better or worse, carrying the Economist is sort of like wearing a shirt that says "I'm smart and worldly and interested in knowing things about Ghana." But unlike a shirt saying all that, it actually works to convey that impression.

Granted, I have only leafed through a couple of issues, but I really don't understand why reading the economist is considered a status symbol. It's basically just a National Geographic with more politics.

Lyle
05-04-2010, 11:41 PM
Basically National Geographic with more politics? It's not even in the same style as the National Geographic. And I think you meant more economics and politics, not just politics.

Subscribe you bitch. :)