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View Full Version : A Pogrom in Xinjiang - Where Is The Outrage?


nikkibong
07-07-2009, 05:21 AM
Racist thugs (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090707/ap_on_re_as/as_china_protest) with clubs vandalizing Muslim-owned businesses, the Chinese military clamping down (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8137432.stm) on communications and rounding up over a thousand people for summary arrest, almost two hundred people murdered (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/07/06/2009-07-06_156_killed_hundreds_hurt_as_uighurs_clash_with_ chinese_in_xinjiang.html) - probably more - two days ago in Urumqi.

Where is the international outrage?

Where is the 'twitter' rage?

Where are the calls for sanctions?

Where is Andrew Sullivan?

rfrobison
07-07-2009, 07:15 AM
Racist thugs (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090707/ap_on_re_as/as_china_protest) with clubs vandalizing Muslim-owned businesses, the Chinese military clamping down (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8137432.stm) on communications and rounding up over a thousand people for summary arrest, almost two hundred people murdered (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/07/06/2009-07-06_156_killed_hundreds_hurt_as_uighurs_clash_with_ chinese_in_xinjiang.html) - probably more - two days ago in Urumqi.

Where is the international outrage?

Where is the 'twitter' rage?

Where are the calls for sanctions?

Where is Andrew Sullivan?

I'm with you on this one, Nikki, for whatever that's worth. But the dudes on the "Worldwise" diavlog today apparently aren't. One blithely dismissed anyone raising objections to the Chinese government's behavior as "interference in their internal affairs," though to be fair, the discussion may have been done before the (latest) bloodletting began.

As depressing as it is to say it, the level of outrage directed at states that commit atrocities against their own citizens appears to be inversely proportional to that state's perceived power and/or economic importance. C.f. Russia's behavior vis-a-vis Georgia, etc.

nikkibong
07-07-2009, 10:55 AM
I'm with you on this one, Nikki, for whatever that's worth. But the dudes on the "Worldwise" diavlog today apparently aren't. One blithely dismissed anyone raising objections to the Chinese government's behavior as "interference in their internal affairs," though to be fair, the discussion may have been done before the (latest) bloodletting began.



It is for reasons like these that I find Worldwide to be by far the weakest of the weekly bloggingheads series. Amoral realists in the thrall of IR speak speaking of "interests" and "strategery" . . .bleh!

There are appalling crimes occuring in China now, and "sovereignty" isn't going to cut it as an excuse.

Lyle
07-07-2009, 11:25 AM
This won't be nearly as big a story as Iran. America is even less connected to Xinjiang than it is to Iran. Not exactly a big Uighur population in the U.S.

It's also happening in the hinterland of China which is a place most Chinese know very little about. I've actually met a Han Chinese student from Xinjiang. Parents were sent there during the Cultural revolution. Most Chinese people could care less about what is going on... isn't that what you see in Shanghai? They don't care I'd imagine. And if they do they're on the Han Chinese side. I'm not talking about intellectual opinion either.

Lyle
07-07-2009, 11:28 AM
"Sovereignty" is an excuse because that is the international system. What's going on is bad, but like you said before... such is China.

nikkibong
07-07-2009, 10:09 PM
This (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/65630d78-6b20-11de-861d-00144feabdc0.html)is the way "ethnic cleansing" gets started.

Why is it that the Chinese government - which typically controlls everything so tightly - is suddenly so "incapable" of stopping slaughter?

I think we know the answer.

bjkeefe
07-07-2009, 10:29 PM
Robert Farley (http://lefarkins.blogspot.com/2009/07/freedumb.html) can sure tell you where the outrage isn't.

(h/t: Jay B. (http://www.haloscan.com/comments/edroso/380964076390108874/#jsid-1246992861-10))

[Added] As commie atheist (http://www.haloscan.com/comments/edroso/380964076390108874/#jsid-1246998429-10) observes in the same thread, it's part of a general trend:

As Jay B. mentions, the righties are now allied with Communist China as they attempt to crush the Uighur rebellion. I'm surprised Jacobson hasn't posted on that yet - after all, the Uighurs were in Gitmo, which ipso facto proves they are terrorists.

The difference, in other words: this time it's Muslins being put down by non-Muslins.

nikkibong
07-07-2009, 10:32 PM
Robert Farley (http://lefarkins.blogspot.com/2009/07/freedumb.html) can sure tell you where the outrage isn't.

(h/t: Jay B. (http://www.haloscan.com/comments/edroso/380964076390108874/#jsid-1246992861-10))

Actually, he can't . . . blogger is blocked in China. (!)

Could you do a quick cut and paste? - I'm quite interested. Feel free to PM me.

-Bong.

bjkeefe
07-07-2009, 10:40 PM
Actually, he can't . . . blogger is blocked in China. (!)

Could you do a quick cut and paste? - I'm quite interested. Feel free to PM me.

-Bong.

Damn. Forgot about where you were. Here is Farley's post (http://lefarkins.blogspot.com/2009/07/freedumb.html):

FREE....dumb?

Andy McCarthy ingests more than his daily allowance (http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MzExZGUzODIyMDQwZmNlNDcxYzEwMWViNTljMjQ3MTc=) of crazy pills (and let me tell you, that's a lot of crazy pills):

The Wall Street Journal (as flagged in the NRO web briefing) reports on rioting in China by Uighur "students" that has left scores dead and hundreds wounded. The "students," described elsewhere in the story as from a "predominantly Muslim ethnic group[, which has] long chafed at restrictions on their civil liberties and religious practices imposed by a Chinese government fearful of political dissent," expressed their dissent by torching cars and buses, as well as according to accounts of some witnesses to state-controlled media rampaging "with big knives stabbing people" on the street.

No reason for non-Muslims in Bermuda, Palau, or the United States to worry, though. The lovable Uighurs are merely trying to address "economic and social discrimination." Once they get social justice, I'm sure they'll stop.

It's hard to figure out where to start... for one, there was a time at which movement conservatives were mildly skeptical of the claims made in Chinese state media. Apparently this is no longer the case. There was also a time at which conservatives would have celebrated a provincial rebellion against our communist superpower existential foe*, but apparently there was a memo or something to the effect that "Anyone from any ethnic group that has members who have ever been incarcerated in Guantanamo deserves the swift, brutal justice of the Chinese state. Pass it on." I also like how McCarthy has tossed aside the values of democracy and self-determination just to score points against liberals; this doesn't even rise to the level of coherence displayed by Chucky "Bring back the Shah" Krauthammer.

The rest of the Corner crew, it appears, has tactfully declined comment.

Hat tip to Chet.

*of the week

bjkeefe
07-07-2009, 10:45 PM
Damn. Forgot about where you were.

Have you looked into a proxy server? Or is it not worth the hassle?

nikkibong
07-07-2009, 11:21 PM
Have you looked into a proxy server? Or is it not worth the hassle?

Wow, thanks for the McCarthy link. I guess the NRO people's hands are tied: they don't know how to reconcile their hatred of Muslims with their hatred of the Chinese!

Anyway, I've thought about a proxy server, but the only site I'm really missing is huffpo - so I'm not sure it's worth the hassle. (I'm not on facebook or twitter, so don't really care about that.) And I've heard, really just heard , that a lot of pornographic sites are bocked here . . .

pampl
07-07-2009, 11:45 PM
I'm pretty sure the extent of blogosphere reaction to international events is directly proportionate to how much of it can be viscerally experienced from one's computer desk. The Uighurs should have set up some twitter feeds, maybe an RSS feed, put up some youtubes, the whole nine yards.

bjkeefe
07-07-2009, 11:51 PM
Wow, thanks for the McCarthy link. I guess the NRO people's hands are tied: they don't know how to reconcile their hatred of Muslims with their hatred of the Chinese!

It is a tough call, and possibly the beginnings of another schism!

Anyway, I've thought about a proxy server, but the only site I'm really missing is huffpo ...

You really know how to hurt a guy (http://bjkeefe.blogspot.com/).

;^)

bjkeefe
07-07-2009, 11:55 PM
I'm pretty sure the extent of blogosphere reaction to international events is directly proportionate to how much of it can be viscerally experienced from one's computer desk. The Uighurs should have set up some twitter feeds, maybe an RSS feed, put up some youtubes, the whole nine yards.

I've seen some reports that the Chinese government has done a massive shutdown on all of those things, plus cellphones. Here's one (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/world/asia/08beijing.html?hp) article on that.

JoeK
07-08-2009, 04:20 AM
What Uyghurs are doing is wrong. Haven't they watched Hero (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_(2002_film))?
They should know better: Our Land (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTIrIGI-lvc).

JoeK
07-08-2009, 04:26 AM
Actually, he can't . . . blogger is blocked in China. (!)

Could you do a quick cut and paste? - I'm quite interested. Feel free to PM me.

-Bong.

You are in China? Jesus! What the hell is Chinese government doing letting bloodthirsty liberals enter their country? They should kick you out.

Lyle
07-08-2009, 06:56 AM
More importantly where is President Obama on this? Who cares what Andy McCarthy thinks, what's the first black President of the United States' opinion?

Obama is with the Bull Connor Chinese I think.

http://www.turkishforum.com.tr/en/content/2009/07/06/uyghur-problem-for-obama-and-medvedev/

bjkeefe
07-08-2009, 05:02 PM
Who cares what Andy McCarthy thinks, what's the first black President of the United States' opinion?

EVERYBODY cares what Andy McCarthy thinks (http://wonkette.com/409725/uighur-riots-in-northwest-china-post-grave-domestic-security-threat-to-bermuda-where-there-are-four-uighurs), that's who. Because he is white.

Lyle
07-08-2009, 05:05 PM
Obama is with the KKK on Xinjiang... oops, I mean the CCP (the Communists... he supports the Communists).

I jest.

bjkeefe
07-08-2009, 05:14 PM
Obama is with the KKK on Xinjiang ...

Troll bait declined.

claymisher
07-08-2009, 08:03 PM
Ah yes, where is the outrage. You know what? Complaining about how other people feel is a dead end. I remember from the Iraq war run-up the arms race in who could muster the most righteous indignation over the suffering of the Iraqi people and who could most loudly denounce everyone else for not being as righteously indignant (Andrew Sullivan won by a mile). Look where that got us.

If you want action, just tell us the action you want.

nikkibong
07-08-2009, 10:22 PM
Ah yes, where is the outrage. You know what? Complaining about how other people feel is a dead end. I remember from the Iraq war run-up the arms race in who could muster the most righteous indignation over the suffering of the Iraqi people and who could most loudly denounce everyone else for not being as righteously indignant (Andrew Sullivan won by a mile). Look where that got us.

If you want action, just tell us the action you want.

You. did. not. compare. me. to. Andrew. Sullivan.

:: Deep breath ::

Regardless, I disagree with your main point: I don't see what's wrong with asking where the outrage over the Xinjiang pogrom is, after all of the (generally justified) hullaballoo over Iran. Doesn't the silence seem strange to you?

Lyle
07-09-2009, 12:26 AM
Not really because how many people in the world know about Xinjiang? How many people know about Iran or Tibet, compared to Xinjiang?

Many Westerners also don't want to rock the economic boat of China. Lots of people are invested in it. The United States government is definitely invested in it. And U.S. foreign policy towards China has been one of long-term patience. Let the lotus flower of democracy in China blossom slowly.

So Obama... he's going to be with the Bull Connor Hans.

stephanie
07-09-2009, 11:17 AM
Regardless, I disagree with your main point: I don't see what's wrong with asking where the outrage over the Xinjiang pogrom is, after all of the (generally justified) hullaballoo over Iran. Doesn't the silence seem strange to you?

No, for the reasons others have pointed out -- you need some sort of PR for a movement, which is usually created by having media presence (ideally good video or some internet presence) plus a narrative that we can get behind. With Iran, we already had a built in narrative that Ahmadinejad was bad, some notion that there were some good reformer types (even if no assumption that they were really represented by any of the candidates), and got good video. So sympathy by most everyone and a storyline (we should support them, Obama isn't doing enough) that certain elements of the US political environment was almost irresistably attracted to.

With the current story, there's none of that. You get outrage if some group in the US takes up the cause and frames the story in a clear and sympathetic way and, ideally, if there is something to seize on to, as in a what should be done kind of way.

As it is, it's just one of those awful things that we feel like we can't do anything about and don't really feel like we understand the overall implications of. (The majority of foreign events that could potentially outrage people who were well-informed probably fall into this category, whereas a lot of what we do get outraged about seems to be based on troubling reasons.)

bjkeefe
07-09-2009, 12:16 PM
[...]

Good points. I'd add that in the case of Iran, there seemed to be a lot more of a mass movement going on, and against a government that many Americans are more primed to dislike, so it probably made more people outside feel there was some hope that paying attention could help.

Add to that, of course, the reality that the Chinese government was much more quick to shut down all channels for citizen journalism and social media.

And ultimately, there are too many horrible things happening every day in the world for it to be possible to be OUTRAGED over every single one of them.

bjkeefe
07-09-2009, 12:55 PM
Just in case it's escaped anyone's attention, today's Hayes/Salam diavlog (http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/21023) features a segment discussing this event.

kezboard
07-09-2009, 01:57 PM
No, for the reasons others have pointed out -- you need some sort of PR for a movement, which is usually created by having media presence (ideally good video or some internet presence) plus a narrative that we can get behind.

Or a Dalai Lama. Rebiya Kadeer seems like a smart and courageous woman, but she isn't the reincarnation of a bodhisattva, and she doesn't wear special robes.

JonIrenicus
07-09-2009, 03:31 PM
Racist thugs (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090707/ap_on_re_as/as_china_protest) with clubs vandalizing Muslim-owned businesses, the Chinese military clamping down (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8137432.stm) on communications and rounding up over a thousand people for summary arrest, almost two hundred people murdered (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/07/06/2009-07-06_156_killed_hundreds_hurt_as_uighurs_clash_with_ chinese_in_xinjiang.html) - probably more - two days ago in Urumqi.

Where is the international outrage?

Where is the 'twitter' rage?

Where are the calls for sanctions?

Where is Andrew Sullivan?

America is not the perpetrator, ergo, it is not an outrage. It helps a great deal to tap into anti american sentiments to raise the lefts ire.

It all boils down to the higher standard America is to bare. China simply has lower standards for the left and its rage. America, so often compared against Utopia, has more to defend against from them, even when the wrongs are clearly and objectively less egregious.

JonIrenicus
07-09-2009, 03:35 PM
Wow, thanks for the McCarthy link. I guess the NRO people's hands are tied: they don't know how to reconcile their hatred of Muslims with their hatred of the Chinese!

Anyway, I've thought about a proxy server, but the only site I'm really missing is huffpo - so I'm not sure it's worth the hassle. (I'm not on facebook or twitter, so don't really care about that.) And I've heard, really just heard , that a lot of pornographic sites are bocked here . . .

That last bit is an outrage, you need to get a proxy server asap. For huffpost/twitter... not the porn sites...

popcorn_karate
07-09-2009, 06:36 PM
America is not the perpetrator, ergo, it is not an outrage.

iran.

guess your full of shit today.

kezboard
07-09-2009, 07:12 PM
China simply has lower standards for the left and its rage

Tibet doesn't count?

JonIrenicus
07-09-2009, 09:34 PM
iran.

guess your full of shit today.

Iran was genuine non US outrage. So I guess you got me. But why?

Sullivan aside (schizoid rage), why do some tragedies capture peoples imagination and others do not?

I think part of it involves the sympathies people have. I do not think anyone is sympathetic to the current Iranian president. Not the left, or the right, and so there was universal empathy that lined up with our other feelings toward the regime.


China is more esoteric. Not as much investment in what is going on or stake in opposing the crackdown, I barely know a thing beyond incidental reports.