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JonIrenicus
06-22-2009, 03:10 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/20/AR2009062001523.html


Not that it matters, even if the detractors reading this agreed with the conclusions of the small article, perceptions about reality > reality. And no person on this earth is immune to its effects. Even I, in my darkest hour, would admit after about 80 drinks that SOME of my perceptions about the world are wrong as an issue of pure analytical chance. But the nature of perception is that you often do not bother with the truth of things.

And so it goes, the Prius is a green car, and recycling plastic bottles is a net environmental benefit.

bjkeefe
06-22-2009, 05:20 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/20/AR2009062001523.html


Not that it matters, even if the detractors reading this agreed with the conclusions of the small article, perceptions about reality > reality. And no person on this earth is immune to its effects. Even I, in my darkest hour, would admit after about 80 drinks that SOME of my perceptions about the world are wrong as an issue of pure analytical chance. But the nature of perception is that you often do not bother with the truth of things.

And so it goes, the Prius is a green car, and recycling plastic bottles is a net environmental benefit.

First, that's not exactly an "article" that you linked to. It's a letter to the editor and the only "reference" it cites is an editorial in a publication that undoubtedly leans to the business-as-usual mindset.

Second, since most of the writer's contention is based on the mining impact in Sudbury, Ontario, you might do well to look into this further (e.g. (http://www.thecarconnection.com/article/1010861_prius-versus-hummer-exploding-the-myth)). There are other questionable assumptions upon which this letter writer's parroted claim was originally made, as well (e.g. (http://www.slate.com/id/2186786/)).

I've seen this Hummer greener than Prius (http://www.google.com/search?q=hummer+greener+than+prius) argument made many times, and rebutted just as often. I'm not really interested enough to continue it, in part because I view the Prius as a first-generation model which will doubtless be improved upon, in part because this seems like one of those issues where different statistics can be waved around to "prove" either side, and in part because it seems almost certain than anyone who does participate in it has already made up his or her mind.

I do think, however, that you ought not make judgments based on reading one dubious post somewhere on the Internet that plays into the way you would like to think.

Also, your tossing in your pet peeve about recycling plastic bottles was an irrelevance, which added nothing except to make it obvious where you're coming from. It would have been more succinct if you had just typed "I hate hippies."

Lyle
06-22-2009, 06:06 AM
You doubt Prius parts get shipped around the world just like the car? I mean, you can't go buy one at the local Farmer's market can you?

bjkeefe
06-22-2009, 06:20 AM
You doubt Prius parts don't get shipped around the world just like the car? I mean, you can't go buy one at the local Farmer's market can you?

Your lack of reading comprehension never fails to amaze me, Lial.

Lyle
06-22-2009, 06:49 AM
Then why the defensiveness to the article? Oh no, my world view got poohed on, oh no.

bjkeefe
06-22-2009, 06:58 AM
Then why the defensiveness to the article? Oh no, my world view got poohed on, oh no.

I wasn't being defensive, as anyone who actually knows how to read could easily see.

For you, I will restate, just this once:

(a) The statement "Hummer greener than Prius" is a canard, especially when the claim is based almost entirely on a readily debunked myth, as indicated by the other references I offered.

(b) I readily acknowledge the Prius isn't a magic bullet and that it has a ways to go, as indicated by my statement: "I view the Prius as a first-generation model which will doubtless be improved upon ..."

(c) I have no "world view" on this Prius vs Hummer issue, as I indicated by saying, "I'm not really interested enough to continue [this debate] ..."

And here's a napkin, to wipe the drool off your chin.

Starwatcher162536
06-22-2009, 08:48 AM
Unless the Prius' parts are shipped around more then conventional cars, that is not really an issue.

As for Prius' net environmental impact (using a conventional car as the opportunity cost), I can't really say.

pampl
06-22-2009, 10:13 AM
Some years ago, while watching Southpark or Penn&Teller's BS, I realized that people who are desperate to make contrarian arguments end up using even shoddier reasoning and evidence than is used to justify the CW. I'm not the biggest Reason Magazine fan, but they seem to me to have some standards for these kinds of arguments instead of just taking something popular and looking for any excuse to criticize it.

JonIrenicus
06-22-2009, 02:24 PM
...
I do think, however, that you ought not make judgments based on reading one dubious post somewhere on the Internet that plays into the way you would like to think.

Also, your tossing in your pet peeve about recycling plastic bottles was an irrelevance, which added nothing except to make it obvious where you're coming from. It would have been more succinct if you had just typed "I hate hippies."

You wound me, I would hope that the phrase "I hate hippies" is perfectly implied in every letter I write.

But you consider this claim about the prius false, k. That's fine, it may well be.

But unless you have a crystal clear view of the exact costs of a vehicle over its lifetime along with the energy used to produce it and dispose of it, and the sources of all that energy down to each component (or most of them), it's hard to say with certainty one way or the other.

For the record, I like the prius way more than the hummer, I despise the latter and consider it a blight on the road, not for environmental reasons primarily, just because it is a hideous lumbering block on the road and I prefer smaller more agile cars.


And even if the conclusions of the article or whatever you want to call it were true, it would still be worth the added impact to further develop the technology.

The lesson though is that not all of your vaunted environmentally responsible behavior is a net good. Some of it is more about feelings than actual benefit. Which is why I brought up the plastic bottles, which cost more energy to harvest, purify, transport and reprocess, than simply make from scratch and dump the waste.

Hippies.