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View Full Version : Many people are not after equal opportunity


JonIrenicus
05-15-2009, 04:10 AM
They say they are, but they are not.

I think when many people pine for equal opportunity, what they are really after are equal Results.



I think more conservative/libertarian minded people care more about the opportunity, where as the more liberally minded people care more about the results being equal.


/end obvious observations

claymisher
05-15-2009, 04:33 AM
They say they are, but they are not.

I think when many people pine for equal opportunity, what they are really after are equal Results.



I think more conservative/libertarian minded people care more about the opportunity, where as the more liberally minded people care more about the results being equal.


/end obvious observations

Yeah, totally, that's why retarded kids should be left out in the cold to die.

Of course we want more equality of outcome. What the hell is wrong with that?!

bjkeefe
05-15-2009, 04:56 AM
They say they are, but they are not.

I think when many people pine for equal opportunity, what they are really after are equal Results.



I think more conservative/libertarian minded people care more about the opportunity, where as the more liberally minded people care more about the results being equal.


/end obvious observations

I think you mean

/end self-serving parroting of stereotypes.

Let us take just one counter-example to the flattering view you would like to hold of your side: the 2008 election. You all had equal opportunity to win over the undecideds, you were unable to, and having lost the election, there has been a non-stop collective tantrum on the Right about the unfairness of the results.

JonIrenicus
05-15-2009, 12:38 PM
Yeah, totally, that's why retarded kids should be left out in the cold to die.

Of course we want more equality of outcome. What the hell is wrong with that?!

No reasonable person wants that, the issue is over degree.


There will never be absolute equality of outcome, can we agree on that?

Further, there will always be people who are more or less well off than others, that too is OK.

My main concern is that even without starting off on the high ground, people can still get there. Will some often have to work harder? yes. And that is fine.

But then, my view of society does not demand utopian equality of starting conditions or end results.

AemJeff
05-15-2009, 03:55 PM
No reasonable person wants that, the issue is over degree.


There will never be absolute equality of outcome, can we agree on that?

Further, there will always be people who are more or less well off than others, that too is OK.

My main concern is that even without starting off on the high ground, people can still get there. Will some often have to work harder? yes. And that is fine.

But then, my view of society does not demand utopian equality of starting conditions or end results.

What's demanded, at a minimum, is that after hundreds of years of enslavement followed by a century of legal discrimination that concrete steps are taken to fix the glaring inequities. This is not a generic solution to a generic problem.

Lyle
05-15-2009, 04:02 PM
I'm with you Jon. Some lefties also want retribution. They want to punish certain people.

JonIrenicus
05-15-2009, 04:13 PM
What's demanded, at a minimum, is that after hundreds of years of enslavement followed by a century of legal discrimination that concrete steps are taken to fix the glaring inequities. This is not a generic solution to a generic problem.


Concrete steps HAVE been taken. What some want is for those steps to continue without end.


But too many conflate the fact that results are not equal with the notion that opportunity must not be equal or damn close to it, what else could POSSIBLY explain different results ?!!?

It does not follow.

In my high school at the last honor roll I attended, they used to have assemblies for eveyone above a 3.0 grade average once a semester.

In my class there were three black guys above a 3.0, including myself, and over TWELVE black girls. This may seem a bit exaggerated, but it holds that black women do noticeably better than black men in highschool and college.

They go to the same schools, come from the same families, with the same socioeconomic status and advantages/disadvantages as their counterparts.

opportunity gaps are NOT an explanation for different results in this case. I just want people to broaden their efforts to pinpoint causes for different results instead of just going out and assuming that opportunity must be lacking and that is a cause for x, y and z.

AemJeff
05-15-2009, 04:24 PM
Concrete steps HAVE been taken. What some want is for those steps to continue without end.


But too many conflate the fact that results are not equal with the notion that opportunity must not be equal or damn close to it, what else could POSSIBLY explain different results ?!!?

It does not follow.

In my high school at the last honor roll I attended, they used to have assemblies for eveyone above a 3.0 grade average once a semester.

In my class there were three black guys above a 3.0, including myself, and over TWELVE black girls. This may seem a bit exaggerated, but it holds that black women do noticeably better than black men in highschool and college.

They go to the same schools, come from the same families, with the same socioeconomic status and advantages/disadvantages as their counterparts.

opportunity gaps are NOT an explanation for different results in this case. I just want people to broaden their efforts to pinpoint causes for different results instead of just going out and assuming that opportunity must be lacking and that is a cause for x, y and z.

As long as you argue anecdotally, you can arrive at any conclusion you like. The historical facts are true regardless of your personal experiences. The debt owed to a population enslaved and legally prevented from full participation for generations is real regardless of anybody's personal feelings. The differences in outcomes experienced by black people compared to whites are measurable and objectively verifiable. Even if that weren't the case, the debt is so huge that it would be a travesty if it would have continued to have been ignored, as it had been at least until I was a kid.

JonIrenicus
05-15-2009, 04:59 PM
As long as you argue anecdotally, you can arrive at any conclusion you like. The historical facts are true regardless of your personal experiences. The debt owed to a population enslaved and legally prevented from full participation for geberations is real regardless of anybody's personal feelings. The differences in outcomes experienced by black people compared to whites are measurable and objectively verifiable. Even if that weren't the case, the debt is so huge that it would be a travesty if it would have continued to have been ignored, as it had been at least until I was a kid.

http://www.blackcollegewire.org/index.php?option=com_ywp_blog&task=view&id=5540&Itemid=28


"The Journal for Blacks in Higher Education holds data from 1990 to 2007 showed that the black male graduation rate increased from 28 percent to 37 percent.

Still, black women at Howard and universities and colleges across the country are surpassing Black males in large percentages. In 2007 black women had a graduation of rate of 48 percent an 11 point difference to black men."


The male female gap is not limited to the black population, it covers most groups, but is alleged to be more pronounced in the black population. This gap cannot logically be explained away using opportunity as a rationale.

AemJeff
05-15-2009, 05:20 PM
http://www.blackcollegewire.org/index.php?option=com_ywp_blog&task=view&id=5540&Itemid=28


"The Journal for Blacks in Higher Education holds data from 1990 to 2007 showed that the black male graduation rate increased from 28 percent to 37 percent.

Still, black women at Howard and universities and colleges across the country are surpassing Black males in large percentages. In 2007 black women had a graduation of rate of 48 percent an 11 point difference to black men."


The male female gap is not limited to the black population, it covers most groups, but is alleged to be more pronounced in the black population. This gap cannot logically be explained away using opportunity as a rationale.

Are you posting this as a refutation of the idea that historic events have disadvantaged blacks in the U.S.? All this suggests is that history may not be the sole factor. (It certainly doesn't prove that proposition.) As I've already argued, even absent measurable harm, the debt would still exist.

claymisher
05-15-2009, 05:21 PM
http://www.blackcollegewire.org/index.php?option=com_ywp_blog&task=view&id=5540&Itemid=28


"The Journal for Blacks in Higher Education holds data from 1990 to 2007 showed that the black male graduation rate increased from 28 percent to 37 percent.

Still, black women at Howard and universities and colleges across the country are surpassing Black males in large percentages. In 2007 black women had a graduation of rate of 48 percent an 11 point difference to black men."


The male female gap is not limited to the black population, it covers most groups, but is alleged to be more pronounced in the black population. This gap cannot logically be explained away using opportunity as a rationale.

Oh yes, absolutely. Better to just assume genetic inferiority.

You know what board you're posting on right? We're not idiots.

graz
05-15-2009, 05:24 PM
This gap cannot logically be explained away using opportunity as a rationale.

No one is making the argument that opportunity is an exclusive factor. You are setting up your own dummies to knock down. Herbie has some advice though:
Can you spot the Pontiac? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqtki6I-VTY)

JonIrenicus
05-15-2009, 05:52 PM
Are you posting this as a refutation of the idea that historic events have disadvantaged blacks in the U.S.? All this suggests is that history may not be the sole factor. (It certainly doesn't prove that proposition.) As I've already argued, even absent measurable harm, the debt would still exist.

To whom is this debt owed?

Descendants of slavery? Discrimination?

What of African immigrants who came after slavery? After the civil rights movement?

Are they still among the indebted?


The truth is the indebtedness has NOTHING to do with policies like affirmative action, it has everything to do with trying to level out the results.

http://fora.tv/2009/04/16/Race_vs_Class_The_Future_of_Affirmative_Action#cha pter_24


take the indebtedness away and the support still stands

JonIrenicus
05-15-2009, 05:59 PM
Oh yes, absolutely. Better to just assume genetic inferiority.

You know what board you're posting on right? We're not idiots.


Sometimes I wonder, did you read what I wrote clearly?

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you did not, otherwise...


the comparison was between black men and black women, this precludes any racial differences, class differences, social status differences. There are still the innate differences between men and women to account for, and part of the gap is that, as A gap can be seen across the demographic board, but that may not be all of the reason. What we can be certain of however, is that lack of opportunity is NOT a cause in this case.

AemJeff
05-15-2009, 06:05 PM
To whom is this debt owed?

Descendants of slavery? Discrimination?

What of African immigrants who came after slavery? After the civil rights movement?

Are they still among the indebted?


The truth is the indebtedness has NOTHING to do with policies like affirmative action, it has everything to do with trying to level out the results.

http://fora.tv/2009/04/16/Race_vs_Class_The_Future_of_Affirmative_Action#cha pter_24


take the indebtedness away and the support still stands

It's a simple equation. The fact the lines are somewhat blurred is an artifact of living in the world and doesn't affect the essential calculation. You don't treat people like animals for centuries and then simply declare your moral debt paid. If you don't like this, I can't help you. I'm done here.

JonIrenicus
05-15-2009, 06:09 PM
No one is making the argument that opportunity is an exclusive factor. You are setting up your own dummies to knock down. Herbie has some advice though:
Can you spot the Pontiac? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqtki6I-VTY)

http://www.yourdailymedia.com/media/1129363832

JonIrenicus
05-15-2009, 06:15 PM
It's a simple equation. The fact the lines are somewhat blurred is an artifact of living in the world and doesn't affect the essential calculation. You don't treat people like animals for centuries and then simply declare your moral debt paid. If you don't like this, I can't help you. I'm done here.


Sins of the father is a terrible moral weight to bear, and a useless one. A guy like John McWhorter agrees that a debt is owed for a time, just not indefinitely.

2009 is NOT the same as 1969.

The systemic weights going against black people are virtually nonexistent compared to earlier decades, treating them as though they are the same or that the same "debt" is owed by todays population helps nothing, it takes attention away from areas that have far more effect on outcome.

pampl
05-15-2009, 08:08 PM
Sins of the father is a terrible moral weight to bear, and a useless one. A guy like John McWhorter agrees that a debt is owed for a time, just not indefinitely.

2009 is NOT the same as 1969.

The systemic weights going against black people are virtually nonexistent compared to earlier decades, treating them as though they are the same or that the same "debt" is owed by todays population helps nothing, it takes attention away from areas that have far more effect on outcome.

I'm not sure why you wrote "A guy like John McWhorter" when he's the go-to guy for conservatives who want to quote a black guy to look non-racist. He was contacted by Sailer looking for quotes. To use Kaus' phrase, it's a case of "even the liberal New Republic"

JonIrenicus
05-15-2009, 08:36 PM
I'm not sure why you wrote "A guy like John McWhorter" when he's the go-to guy for conservatives who want to quote a black guy to look non-racist. He was contacted by Sailer looking for quotes. To use Kaus' phrase, it's a case of "even the liberal New Republic"

Then quote Barack Obama, he has stated that he does not think his daughters need special consideration based on race. And he is right.

http://www.slate.com/id/2187718/

"Obama has certainly sent signals that he is not doctrinaire on the issue. In an interview last May on ABC's This Week With George Stephanopoulos, he was asked whether his own daughters should someday receive preferences in college admissions. His response was unexpected: "I think that my daughters should probably be treated by any admissions officer as folks who are pretty advantaged." He added, "I think that we should take into account white kids who have been disadvantaged and have grown up in poverty and shown themselves to have what it takes to succeed." His comments lit up the blogosphere with speculation that as president he might spearhead a major policy change, shifting the basis of affirmative action from race to class disparities."

It's one of the more admirable and refreshing stances he has taken.

pampl
05-15-2009, 09:00 PM
So is the default position for black people that debt is carried forever? I don't see any other reason why I should be impressed that Obama has adopted centrist rhetoric when he's done that for a million other positions, or that an idiosyncratic pundit has idiosyncratic views. Call me a racist but I don't think every black person has a complete innate knowledge of sociology and ethics, so I don't see why it's so important that there exists black people who are opposed to AA in its current form.

edit: to clarify by comparison: I don't think there's really any reason to care that Buffet thinks the rich should be taxed more, even though he himself is very rich. I think making a big deal out of someone voting 'against their interests' is pointless and kind of degrading for the person involved.

JonIrenicus
05-15-2009, 11:12 PM
So is the default position for black people that debt is carried forever? I don't see any other reason why I should be impressed that Obama has adopted centrist rhetoric when he's done that for a million other positions, or that an idiosyncratic pundit has idiosyncratic views. Call me a racist but I don't think every black person has a complete innate knowledge of sociology and ethics, so I don't see why it's so important that there exists black people who are opposed to AA in its current form.

edit: to clarify by comparison: I don't think there's really any reason to care that Buffet thinks the rich should be taxed more, even though he himself is very rich. I think making a big deal out of someone voting 'against their interests' is pointless and kind of degrading for the person involved.


Why are you all so obsessed with debts? Do you really think it healthy for any population to dwell for all eternity on injustices of the past?

Get in line. Every people on this earth if you go back far enough could harp on a debt owed. At what point does that take a back seat? Apparently 4 decades is not enough, generations removed from the conditions of jim crow and the like, still not enough time?


Personally, I find it demeaning to want something like affirmative action indefinitely. To want the descendants of some criminal that lived 2-3-4-10 decades in the past to be indebted to the descendants of victims today.


What some of you seem to want is permanent victim hood for black people, permanent guilt trips non minorities, get over yourselves.


If it is your wish to have a situation where the bar is lowered for some groups because of their skin color, not for a time, but for all time, you degrade and demean that group yourself.


The insult is two fold.

The first is saying that the descendants and their views are static and unchanging, the sins of their fathers pass unto them.

The second insult is to the so called victims (or rather in many if not most cases their descendants today). It says that they will never overcome any past hardships, they are forever crippled and handicapped in the grand scheme of life and prosperity.

Upper middle class black person? from a recently immigrated family from Nigeria? Sorry, you have societal handicaps and are owed a debt.

I find this an astonishingly disgusting view. It reinforces the Lie, that today, in 2009, there remains systemic racism to the extent that it can dramatically effect peoples outcome.

bjkeefe
05-15-2009, 11:38 PM
Will this racist rant ever end?

JonIrenicus
05-16-2009, 01:07 AM
Will this racist rant ever end?

I think it is pretty over now, with no minds changed. Never said I was that persuasive. For what it is worth most people in my own family disagree with me. I am still right, but this is an uphill battle with some people.

But I think I am done trying to make the blind see clearly now.

EDIT, I lied, one final closing point. None of you deny that equal opportunity is always what you are going for. You acknowledge either explicitly or in the act of dodging the issue, that often times you are guided by trying to equalize results or simply right some past injustice.

If you wish to do this, fine. All I ask is for you to stop being so sloppy with your rhetoric, and self deceit.

If what you TRULY want, is equality of outcome, or at the very least a leveling of outcome between different groups, it serves NO purpose to mistake something like equal opportunity for equal results.

You then put a focus on opportunity when that is not truly a large component of the differences in the results.

Your sloppiness, on its own, is not so destructive, but it is not on its own, it is not inert, it actually causes more harm by throwing out dummy issues to tackle while letting the real ones slip by.

God forbid anyone ever talk about the difference an intact family makes, on child outcome and general wealth. Cosby gets attacked for stating the obvious, even had a book written against him by that fool Bill Maher thinks is brilliant

http://www.amazon.com/Bill-Cosby-Right-Black-Middle/product-reviews/0465017193/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1


opportunity based on skin color, in 2009, is a dummy issue. Stop championing such a piss poor and off the mark idea. Base it off class and wealth if you must, but not that.

Lyle
05-16-2009, 01:36 PM
Amen, good rant.

Lyle
05-16-2009, 01:54 PM
There was nothing racist about Jon's rant. Totally dishonest of you to argue such.

cognitive madisonian
05-17-2009, 07:27 PM
I'm with you Jon. Some lefties also want retribution. They want to punish certain people.

You can find this in the absurd arguments for reparations. There are sillier examples, too--the coach who is fired because his team runs up the score, the schools that eliminate 'winners' because it offends losers, etc.

Lyle
05-18-2009, 07:37 AM
My favorite example is the white guy who got fired from his job for using the word niggardly around some black folk. Classic.