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Lyle
04-05-2009, 09:55 PM
President Barack Obama in Europe:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=asgB92NGuflI&refer=home

At a news conference afterward, Obama said his debut on the international stage had convinced him that “political interaction in Europe is not that different from the United States Senate,” where he served before entering the White House.

“There’s a lot of -- I don’t know what the term is in Austrian -- wheeling and dealing, and people are pursuing their interests, and everybody has their own particular issues and their own particular politics,” he said in response to an Austrian reporter’s question.

pampl
04-05-2009, 10:57 PM
Lyle, my good man, I believe you've been had! This subject of this article is quite different from Republican governor Sarah Palin: it's Democratic president Barack Obama! Quite different indeed!

Lyle
04-05-2009, 11:33 PM
Yep, looks like America elected Sarah Palin after all. Haha... I jest, I jest.

claymisher
04-06-2009, 01:17 AM
Austrian German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_German), fyi.

Lyle
04-06-2009, 05:28 PM
I speak German, and Austrians speak German. There are different dialects, but they are all the same language. Nobody in Austria says they speak Austrian.

He may have said it tongue-in-cheek though, like if someone were to say they spoke American.

I'm not seriously criticizing him, but it's fun to point out he is as much a dummy as Sarah Palin is supposed to be. The truth is, neither of them are stupid.

Starwatcher162536
04-06-2009, 06:49 PM
I speak German, and Austrians speak German. There are different dialects, but they are all the same language. Nobody in Austria says the speak Austrian.

He may have said it tongue-in-cheek though, like if someone were to say they spoke American.

I'm not seriously criticizing him, but it's fun to point out he is as much a dummy as Sarah Palin is supposed to be. The truth is, neither of them are stupid.

I do not know if she is stupid, or for that matter if Obama is stupid. Personally, I do not think Palin is stupid so much as she was uninformed about the important matters of the day.

However, it is rather easy to see why many people would question Palin's intelligence.

Lyle
04-06-2009, 08:08 PM
Maybe it is understandable and easier too... but that doesn't make it right, imo.

bjkeefe
04-06-2009, 08:13 PM
Maybe it is understandable and easier too... but that doesn't make it right.

Are you seriously saying that it isn't right to question the intelligence of someone who holds political office and aspires to a higher one?

Lyle
04-06-2009, 08:14 PM
No, that's not what I said at all.

bjkeefe
04-06-2009, 08:16 PM
No, that's not what I said at all.

What did I misunderstand?

I do not know if she is stupid, or for that matter if Obama is stupid. Personally, I do not think Palin is stupid so much as she was uninformed about the important matters of the day.

However, it is rather easy to see why many people would question Palin's intelligence.

Maybe it is understandable and easier too... but that doesn't make it right, imo.

Are you seriously saying that it isn't right to question the intelligence of someone who holds political office and aspires to a higher one?

Lyle
04-06-2009, 08:17 PM
Everything.

bjkeefe
04-06-2009, 08:18 PM
Everything.

Lyle the liar, once again.

Enjoy playing with yourself, wingnut.

TwinSwords
04-06-2009, 08:21 PM
Wow. I didn't know it was possible to checkmate someone in two moves.

Nice work.

uncle ebeneezer
04-06-2009, 08:26 PM
Palin couldn't answer the most predictable policy questions posed to her. Or even come up with a decent cover-your-ass way to skirt the question. And this happened repeatedly in her very first time in the public eye. That suggests that she wouldn't be a very good politician, at the very least. She was not ready for prime time.

Given the number of speeches, interviews, and debates he gave over the 2 year election process (not to mention the common high-testimonials of really smart people from both sides, who have met him), I'm fairly confident that Obama's intelligence is not a myth or some incredible ruse. If he suddenly bumbles on EVERY "gotcha" question for a month, then I may feel differently.

Lyle
04-06-2009, 08:28 PM
bjkeefe,

The point of this thread to is show how easy it is to make an argument that Barack Obama is ignorant and uneducated. Sarah Palin is similarly criticized on quotes of hers taken out of context or that don't even exist. There is nothing wrong in questioning any politician's intelligence, education, experiences, or whatever... but making judgments about them from ignorance or from out of context, is wrong imo. Politicians also slip up and make mistakes since they don't in fact know everything even if they went to Havard, Columbia, or Yale.

The fact that President Obama stupidly commented about a non-existent Austrian language doesn't in fact mean he's stupid or uneducated, just as some of Palin's remarks don't make her ipso facto stupid. However, if people are going to call out Sarah Palin smarts, Barack Obama's remarks are fair game as well... and I'm sure the Austrian people had a nice chuckle when he said what he said.

President John F. Kennedy made a similar stupid remark in Berlin when he said, "Ich bin ein Berliner", rather than "Ich bin Berliner". The former translates to "I'm a jelly donut". What an idiot right?

Lyle
04-06-2009, 08:34 PM
Not ready for primetime doesn't equate to stupid, I'd argue.

Nobody is seriously questioning Obama's intelligence, but it's fun and fair to point out how stupid and ignorant he can sound at times.

The question he was asked was not a "gotcha" question either. It wasn't a "what language do they speak in Austria?" question. It was a normal question that didn't even need a remark about what language the Austrian people speak. He just openly made an ignorant statement, which we all do from time to time... even Havard and Columbia educated people.

Starwatcher162536
04-06-2009, 08:45 PM
What did I misunderstand?

I think he is saying that it is tempting to look only at the surface and make quick conclusions, but that is not what we as a people should strive for.

Take that big meme that was out there for awhile during the campaign that was "Palin is unintelligent as evidenced by the fact that she does not read anything" that resulted from one of the Couric interviews as an example.

Now lets pretend I was there also and then after Palin's non response Couric asked me what magazines I read. I would have responded with "New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Newsweek, Discover, Science News, Scientific America, Wired, Nuts & Volts, Seed, and American Scientist". I would bet the meme would then have become "WoW!, random nobodys off of the street are smarter then Palin. She reaalllly is an idiot!"

Of course that meme is not really fair because it is only looking at the surface. I can respond freely because I am not running for office and for the most part do not care what people think of me, the same is not true for Palin.

If Palin did not list some form of Christian media, she risks alienating her base. If she did list some form of Christian media no doubt someone would have found some ridiculous article from that media that would have reinforced the meme that "Palin is a religious whacko", this would run the risk of alienating many moderates.

She was clearly in between a rock and a hard place.

Lyle
04-06-2009, 08:47 PM
Exactly.

Starwatcher162536
04-06-2009, 08:50 PM
bjkeefe,

The point of this thread to is show how easy it is to make an argument that Barack Obama is ignorant and uneducated. Sarah Palin is similarly criticized on quotes of hers taken of of context or that don't even exist. There is nothing wrong in questioning any politician's intelligence, education, experiences, or whatever... but making judgments about them from ignorance or from out of context, is wrong imo. Politicians also slip up and make mistakes since they don't in fact know everything even if they went to Havard, Columbia, or Yale.

The fact that President Obama stupidly commented about a non-existent Austrian language doesn't in fact mean he's stupid or uneducated, just as some of Palin's remarks don't make her ipso facto stupid. However, if people are going to call out Sarah Palin smarts, Barack Obama's remarks are fare game as well... and I'm sure the Austrian people had a nice chuckle when he said what he said.

President John F. Kennedy made a similar stupid remark in Berlin when he said, "Ich bin ein Berliner", rather than "Ich bin Berliner". The former translates to "I'm a jelly donut". What an idiot right?

OF course it's not really a fair analogy. It wasan't "gotcha" moments that made people question Palin's intelligence or education, it was the whole Palin package.

I do agree with you on the point that ignorance does not equal stupidity. The world is a really complicated place,even the brightest amongst us are ignorant about whole heaps of material.

TwinSwords
04-06-2009, 08:55 PM
If Palin did not list some form of Christian media, she risks alienating her base. If she did list some form of Christian media no doubt someone would have found some ridiculous article from that media that would have reinforced the meme that "Palin is a religious whacko", this would run the risk of alienating many moderates.

She was clearly in between a rock and a hard place.

Fascinating. But you're right: Standard Republican fare is so repugnant to the majority of the American people that it was better for Palin to willfully flub the question than answer it honestly.

Very perceptive of you.

Lyle
04-06-2009, 09:12 PM
No, I agree... although Obama's Austrian moment wasn't really a "gotcha" moment, he just openly made the comment without the need to do so. It's possible he said it tongue-in-cheek, if you watch the video. The Austrian journalist didn't seem to care, and was just glad to be having her question answered by him.

... and yes, the Obama package is more learned and educated than the Sarah Palin package.

bjkeefe
04-06-2009, 09:14 PM
I think he is saying that it is tempting to look only at the surface and make quick conclusions, but that is not what we as a people should strive for.

Take that big meme that was out there for awhile during the campaign that was "Palin is unintelligent as evidenced by the fact that she does not read anything" that resulted from one of the Couric interviews as an example.

[...]


Oh, please. There is no point in trying to make excuses for that one instance. (And as Twin correctly observes, either she reads nothing or she's just smart enough to know that the truth would have been worse.)

Everything she did during the campaign, and plenty of leaks from within, showed her to be someone who was uninformed, uninterested in or incapable of learning, and worst, proud of her own ignorance. That half the Republican pundits went off the reservation and blasted her, on the record, down the home stretch only confirms that this is not a partisan impression.

[Added] And let's not forget that she did this many press conferences while running for VP: 0.

uncle ebeneezer
04-06-2009, 09:40 PM
Not ready for primetime doesn't equate to stupid, I'd argue.

And I would agree, that's why I made the distinction.

But you do see that, her lack of preparation, inability to skirt questions (as any politician will do from time to time) and the fact that the only time she seemed coherent was when she was delivering red-meat speeches could be taken by many as indicators that there was no "there" there. IE- that she was totally unprepared and possibly unqualified and only given the VP nod out of potential appeal to joe six pack. Plus if you say things that sound stupid often enough...

Lyle
04-06-2009, 11:18 PM
I'm not sure, because a lot of what was reported was probably inaccurate or false. She's no technocrat of course, Obama is not really a technocrat either, but she's not the dunce she's made out to be.

At this time she's probably better suited to be a cabinet member, and not the President (she's not well versed in a lot of areas). I can't help but think how ignorant Harry Truman, Lyndon Johnson, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, and G.W. Bush were about a whole lot of subjects. Preferably all our Presidents would be wunderkids like Obama or Clinton, but less than perfect people can be President too, I think.

bjkeefe
04-06-2009, 11:30 PM
Let no one accuse Lyle of being able to keep his stories straight. From the same thread, less than six hours apart:

... it's fun to point out he [Obama] is as much a dummy as Sarah Palin is supposed to be.

Preferably all our Presidents would be wunderkids like Obama or Clinton ...

Oh, and by the way?

I speak German ...

Then you of all people should know the word you want is wunderkind (http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A&q=wunderkind).

Lyle
04-06-2009, 11:34 PM
Haha... you think I've contradicted myself. I didn't say Barack Obama was stupid, I said he wasn't multiple times. He, like anybody, is at times stupid however. Your stupid, I'm stupid, we are all stupid. Not that big a deal or very difficult to understand.

You're right it is wunderkind auf Deutsch. However, in English we say or write wonderkid sometimes. I was stuck in both languages. I'm not perfect, nor have I ever claimed to be. Oh no!!!

bjkeefe
04-06-2009, 11:41 PM
You're right it is wunderkind auf Deutsch. However, in English we say or write wonderkid sometimes.

You said "wunderkid" before, not "wonderkid." And neither (http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A&q=wunderkid) one (http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A&q=wonderkid) is correct.

... I'm stupid ...

I think we can leave it there.

Lyle
04-06-2009, 11:56 PM
You said "wunderkid" before, not "wonderkid."

I'm aware. That's why I said I was stuck in both languages, i.e. wunder and kid.

TwinSwords
04-06-2009, 11:59 PM
I don't think you have been particularly effective at convincing anyone of any of the main points you seem to have set out to make with this exhaustively debated thread of yours. Many bites at the apple, to no avail.

But fear not, my good friend, for not all is lost. You have made some things abundantly clear: How much your feelings are hurt, how much you adore Sarah Palin, and how greatly you regret what happened to her in the last election.

You have my sympathy. Losing elections is tough. I know for many Democrats, the pain of 2000 and 2004 lasted for years. The wounds were deep. In some cases, the depression was real.

I understand what you're going through. Hang in there. We're going to have another election in 2012. In 2012, you can get back at those meanies who made fun of poor Sarah Palin. If she wins, you can say "we showed you, libtards." Focus on how good that will feel. It will help you make it through.

I think you might have a chance. If you can somehow find a way to suppress the crazies in your party and keep much more of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkS7OwERnUw) kind of thing from happening, or this (http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=19635) kind of thing, then you might have a very real chance of winning.

I will confess, however, that I tend to agree with David Frum. More likely, it will take the Republicans 3 or 4 election cycles to work the lunatics out of the party and restore some semblence of respectable credibility to its ranks. Right now, crazy is the stock and trade of the conservative movement. And it's not going to help you win any elections.

graz
04-07-2009, 12:02 AM
I'm aware. That's why I said I was stuck in both languages, i.e. wunder and kid.

http://www.maddogonline.com/images/items/14003.jpg

Put down that weapon!

Lyle
04-07-2009, 12:06 AM
I'm an Independent, not a Republican. Barack Obama will be the next President, after that, who knows.

I'm just not in to hating Sarah Palin.

bjkeefe
04-07-2009, 12:19 AM
... this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkS7OwERnUw) kind of thing ...

Alter makes a good point in that KO interview -- that if a Democratic member of Congress had said the sort of things Bachmann has been saying, the hysteria from the GOP and the MSM calling for apologies, not to mention calling for sanctions or censure from the Congressional leadership, would be deafening. But, once again, IOKIYAR.

Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
04-07-2009, 12:31 AM
President John F. Kennedy made a similar stupid remark in Berlin when he said, "Ich bin ein Berliner", rather than "Ich bin Berliner". The former translates to "I'm a jelly donut". What an idiot right?

Lyle,

I know you said you speak German and I certainly don't but my understanding is that your above claim is an incorrect urban legend. (http://urbanlegends.about.com/cs/historical/a/jfk_berliner.htm)

Lyle
04-07-2009, 01:39 AM
No, it's not. You can actually go and see the piece of paper he had in his hands while giving the speech with "Ich bin ein Berliner" on it... or was it written correctly and he used his own limited knowledge of German? (edit... it was written wrong and he said what was on the piece of paper -- see below) Anyway, he said it. And the paper is at the Federal Republic of Germany Museum in Bonn, Germany (Haus der Geschichte
der Bundesrepublik Deutschland).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/JFK_Ich_bin_ein_Berliner_-_civis_Romanus_sum.png

edit: i've read the wiki page and it's agreeing with your statement Abu-Noor, however, i'm not sure the wiki page is right. what i was told, in Germany, and in German classes here in the United States was that he should have said "Ich bin Berliner"... perhaps I'm wrong, I'm not an expert on the matter. The note is on display at the museum in Bonn, however, and I believe they give the "urban legend" story there.

bjkeefe
04-07-2009, 01:48 AM
No, it's not. You can actually go and see the piece of paper he had in his hands with "Ich bin ein Berliner" on it... or was it written correctly and he used his own limited knowledge of German? (edit... it was written wrong and he said what was on the piece of paper -- see below) Anyway, he said it. And the paper is at the Federal Republic of Germany Museum in Bonn, Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner

Well, it's painfully clear you did not read the article Abu Noor linked to, but you appear not even to have read your own. From the section titled "Jelly doughnut urban legend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner#Jelly_doughnut_urban_legend):"

In fact, Kennedy's statement is both grammatically correct[4] and perfectly idiomatic, and would not be misunderstood in context. The indefinite article ein can be and often is omitted when speaking of an individual's profession or residence but is necessary when speaking in a figurative sense as Kennedy did. Since the president was not literally from Berlin but only declaring his solidarity with its citizens, "Ich bin Berliner" would not have been correct.[5]

That is, no one is denying he said the phrase (once again, you are arguing something different from what you claimed starting out); the part that is the urban legend is the "jelly doughnut" thing.

[Added] Reminder: Here is what you originally claimed:

President John F. Kennedy made a similar stupid remark in Berlin when he said, "Ich bin ein Berliner", rather than "Ich bin Berliner". The former translates to "I'm a jelly donut". What an idiot right?

Lyle
04-07-2009, 01:49 AM
Go back and read my edited post. I was editing while you responded.

bjkeefe
04-07-2009, 01:53 AM
Go back and read my edited post. I was editing while you responded.

I did, and you still haven't addressed the only point of contention.

I don't know why I waste time talking to you.

Lyle
04-07-2009, 01:55 AM
Then don't respond to me then.

bjkeefe
04-07-2009, 01:58 AM
Then don't respond to me then.

Thanks for admitting that you have no answer for the one point I wanted to make.

[Added] I now see that you've substantially re-edited your earlier post (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=109401#post109401) (last revision now timestamped 2:01; i.e., well after several exchanges), to make it agree with what I was saying. You're so pathetic.

Lyle
04-07-2009, 02:18 AM
bjkeefe,

My edits weren't ever addressed as a response to you, but only to Abu-Noor. I thank Abu-Noor for pointing this "urban legend" argument out to me, I had no idea. If it is in fact an urban legend, I'm not sure a lot of Germans realize this either.

bjkeefe
04-07-2009, 02:25 AM
My edits weren't ever addressed as a response to you, but only to Abu-Noor.


Bullshit. You made them only after I pointed out your utter wrongness in several posts, and you realized your mealy-mouthing wasn't cutting it. Anyone wanting to review the sequence can tell from what I quoted from your posts, and they can see the timestamps.

You're a liar, Lyle.

graz
04-07-2009, 02:29 AM
bjkeefe,

My edits weren't ever addressed as a response to you, but only to Abu-Noor. I thank Abu-Noor for pointing this "urban legend" argument out to me, I had no idea. If it is in fact an urban legend, I'm not sure a lot of Germans realize this either.

So ya know how a computer virus slows down or destroys a network? ... Yeah, well you're like a human version that was planted to disrupt or drive crazy the neural network know as bjkeefe. You might succeed yet... Or am I giving you too much credit?

And I don't think a lot of Germans are aware of this fact either.

Lyle
04-07-2009, 02:35 AM
Onpedia has a fuller explanation, maybe. It concurs with your point though. Thanks for the knowledge.

http://www.onpedia.com/encyclopedia/ich-bin-ein-berliner

According to the context of the speech, Kennedy meant that he stood together with West Berliners in their struggle to maintain their freedom against Communist aggression. Jelly doughnuts are called Berliner outside Berlin (but usually referred to as Pfannkuchen in Berlin itself). This has led some people to believe that the phrase Kennedy uttered was amusingly ambiguous ("I am a jelly doughnut"), which is, for the most part, incorrect. While the phrase could possibly be understood that way, both the context of the quotation and the fact that jelly doughnuts are not actually called "Berliner" in Berlin made this unlikely. Normally a Berliner would say "Ich komme aus Berlin" ("I come from Berlin"), but because Kennedy wanted to emphasize the common identity among people of the "world of freedom", that usage would have been misleading. "Ich bin Berliner" (cf. "Ich bin Amerikaner", "Ich bin Deutscher" etc.) would be preferred in common usage.

So to some Germans he did in fact say that he was a jelly doughnut. Maybe that's made the apparent falsehood last. Interesting. The German professors I had actually treat the story as truth... or did at the time. However, "Ich bin Berliner" would have been the grammatically correct phrase, or as the article points out "Ich komme aus Berlin". So something, in the end, was wrong with his German, just not the part about him being a jelly doughnut (at least as far as Berliners are concerned).

bjkeefe
04-07-2009, 02:42 AM
[...]

I'll count that as a surrender, your gutless attempt to pretend you're replying to Abu Noor notwithstanding.

Thanks.

pampl
04-07-2009, 08:55 AM
So to some Germans he did in fact say that he was a jelly doughnut.

That's literally the opposite of what that article says.

Lyle
04-07-2009, 10:22 AM
Not exactly, because it says this: Jelly doughnuts are called Berliner outside Berlin (but usually referred to as Pfannkuchen in Berlin itself). This has led some people to believe that the phrase Kennedy uttered was amusingly ambiguous ("I am a jelly doughnut").

So some Germans (the "some people") outside of Berlin took it to mean, or have mistakenly since, taken it to mean "I am a jelly doughnut". Non-Berliner Germans wouldn't have understood it in a Berlin context. So to them, he did in fact say, as they understood it, "I am a jelly doughnut".

pampl
04-07-2009, 10:59 AM
Not exactly, because it says this: Jelly doughnuts are called Berliner outside Berlin (but usually referred to as Pfannkuchen in Berlin itself). This has led some people to believe that the phrase Kennedy uttered was amusingly ambiguous ("I am a jelly doughnut").

So some Germans (the "some people") outside of Berlin took it to mean, or have mistakenly since, taken it to mean "I am a jelly doughnut". Non-Berliner Germans wouldn't have understood it in a Berlin context. So to them, he did in fact say, as they understood it, "I am a jelly doughnut".

"This sentence is about as likely to be misinterpreted as the following analogous example: suppose the German Chancellor Gerhard Schrder went to New York following the September 11th attacks and said "I am a New Yorker". While it is possible that a native English speaker would mistake his meaning for "I am the magazine New Yorker," given the context most would understand the president to have meant, "I am a citizen of New York." The jelly doughnut urban legend apparently arose in Florida in the 1980s and culminated in a letter to the editor to The New York Times in 1987 which claimed that the error was embarrassing and resulted in laughter. The context made the meaning very clear, though, so nobody misunderstood Kennedy when he delivered his speech. He did however pronounce the sentence with a very strong American accent, reading from his note "ish bin ine bear-LEAN-ar". Contrary to the urban legend, it was not followed by a roar of laughter."

So no, no one misunderstood him. Some non-German people later were led to believe a stupid lie. You are propagating that lie, either by open dishonesty or mere illiteracy.

graz
04-07-2009, 11:00 AM
Not exactly, because it says this: Jelly doughnuts are called Berliner outside Berlin (but usually referred to as Pfannkuchen in Berlin itself). This has led some people to believe that the phrase Kennedy uttered was amusingly ambiguous ("I am a jelly doughnut").

So some Germans (the "some people") outside of Berlin took it to mean, or have mistakenly since, taken it to mean "I am a jelly doughnut". Non-Berliner Germans wouldn't have understood it in a Berlin context. So to them, he did in fact say, as they understood it, "I am a jelly doughnut".

Which brings it back to I'm not calling him stupid... but Kennedy and Obama were stupid by saying things that stupid people like me misunderstood... not that I'm stupid... except we're all stupid sometimes... therefore Barack Obama is just as stupid as Sarah Palin is... except he is smarter... maybe.

One thing is for sure... she is not not smart.

Lyle
04-07-2009, 05:08 PM
Maybe I'm in denial about it... but the Germans propagate the myth today and I learned it from them. I'm not learned enough to tell a German language professor or a German historian they're wrong.

So put Lyle up there with he New York Times, the Guardian, the BBC, CNN, and all the Germans that believe it in the stupid column. :)

TwinSwords
04-07-2009, 06:13 PM
So put Lyle up there with he New York Times, the Guardian, the BBC, CNN, and all the Germans ... :)

Exactly: Wrong, and stupid!

You finally got it!

pampl
04-07-2009, 07:22 PM
Maybe I'm in denial about it... but the Germans propagate the myth today and I learned it from them. I'm not learned enough to tell a German language professor or a German historian they're wrong.

So put Lyle up there with he New York Times, the Guardian, the BBC, CNN, and all the Germans that believe it in the stupid column. :)

You lied about an article that took 3 seconds to check. I don't have a lot of reasons to trust your unverifiable claims about what your German friends are doing, or your unverified claims about the media

nikkibong
04-07-2009, 07:53 PM
To be fair, Obama has demonstrated throughout his life a dispiriting lack of interest in the world outside of the US - a vice which plagued his predecessor, as well. He speaks no foreign languages, (at least Dubya had bad Spanish!) trumpets the fact that he "lived abroad" when he was a child - as if this is indicative of his own independent interests -, and writes in Dreams From My Father of his lack of a sense of place in Europe and elsewhere abroad (including Kenya).

As someone who has spent a great deal of time in Europe and Asia, - and, not to toot my own horn, speaks multiple languages (ok, fine, toot!), - I'm always a little miffed when Obama goes abroad as if he is the only ambassador this country has ever sent out. "Reintroducing America." Yes, he's our President: but he all too often acts as if he is the only American that Europeans have ever encountered. Sorry, bud: I was there before you were.

Yes, Palin was a jingoistic moron. But Obama ain't exactly an international sophisticate.

Lyle
04-07-2009, 07:55 PM
No, I didn't lie actually.

Here are links to the following media reporting their belief in the "Ich bin ein Berliner" meme.

The New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/30/opinion/i-am-a-jelly-filled-doughnut.html

The New York Times (2)

http://www.nytimes.com/1983/12/12/books/books-of-the-times-104882.html?&pagewanted=1

BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/letter_from_america/3167810.stm

Time Magazine

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1575291,00.html

The Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/newsroom/story/0,,1566507,00.html



Here's the New York Times correcting itself, however... and I'll leave it at that. I surrender to the legend!!!

http://papercuts.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/19/ich-bin-what/

Lyle
04-07-2009, 08:02 PM
I agree, good points. However, I think he's building on and/or using his cult following abroad to leverage more power for himself and America. It's frustrating he's not more respectful of the Americans who came before him or even the previous administration, but politics is about power and less about truth. You know this though.

pampl
04-07-2009, 08:05 PM
No, I didn't lie actually.

Yes, you literally and explicitly lied.

"The context made the meaning very clear, though, so nobody misunderstood Kennedy when he delivered his speech."
"So to some Germans he did in fact say that he was a jelly doughnut."

You may have wished you didn't lie, but the solution to that is to stop lying not to lie about whether you lied.

Lyle
04-07-2009, 08:07 PM
That's not a lie. I asserted what I thought was left out of the article. I even quote and link to the article so people can agree or disagree with my assertion.

graz
04-07-2009, 08:09 PM
Yes, Palin was a jingoistic moron. But Obama ain't exactly an international sophisticate.

Yes she was and no he isn't. But are you disappointed in the tone and message he delivered on our behalf?

As someone who has spent a great deal of time in Europe and Asia, - and, not to toot my own horn, speaks multiple languages (ok, fine, toot!), - I'm always a little miffed when Obama goes abroad as if he is the only ambassador this country has ever sent out. "Reintroducing America." Yes, he's our President: but he all too often acts as if he is the only American that Europeans have ever encountered. Sorry, bud: I was there before you were.

Yes it is conceit on your part that we care about your suavity or your superiority. Can you really make the case for your impression that: but he all too often acts as if he is the only American that Europeans have ever encountered.? Or is that a novelistic impression?

pampl
04-07-2009, 08:23 PM
That's not a lie. I asserted what I thought was left out of the article. I even quote and link to the article so people can agree or disagree with my assertion.
You selectively quoted the article so it looked like it supported you then wrote "So.." as if you were concluding from it. That's misrepresenting the article as
saying the opposite of what it did. I suppose you could make some definitional argument that it's not specifically lying but only a general kind of dishonesty, but I don't think squirming revisionism is an effective strategy for convincing people you're honest so I don't see why you're bothering with it.

graz
04-07-2009, 08:27 PM
You selectively quoted the article so it looked like it supported you then wrote "So.." as if you were concluding from it. That's misrepresenting the article as
saying the opposite of what it did. I suppose you could make some definitional argument that it's not specifically lying but only a general kind of dishonesty, but I don't think squirming revisionism is an effective strategy for convincing people you're honest so I don't see why you're bothering with it.

Because this is a :
http://www.maddogonline.com/images/items/14003.jpg
Tool... And so is...

Lyle
04-07-2009, 08:30 PM
I quoted the language in the article to show that it was possible some Germans misunderstood the quote. So, yes, I was disagreeing with the article's ultimate conclusion... that should have been clear.

To lie, I would have to have knowingly assert a falsehood. I didn't do that though because I was skeptical of the article's conclusion. That's why I used the article's language to buttress my own argument that the quote might have been misunderstood by some Germans.

It doesn't matter now. I am ultimately wrong about it, but I didn't know that.

... I also don't care if you or anyone else thinks I'm honest or dishonest. You can have whatever opinion you want. Go right ahead and agree with bjkeefe.

TwinSwords
04-08-2009, 01:11 AM
Can you really make the case for your impression that: but he all too often acts as if he is the only American that Europeans have ever encountered.? Or is that a novelistic impression?

Good question. Likewise, can Nikkibong make the case that Obama has "a dispiriting lack of interest in the world outside of the US?"

I doubt it.

nikkibong
04-08-2009, 01:33 PM
I'll concede a bit of well, conceit, on my part in that post, graz: hence the ironic (toot!). (And you're more than welcome not to care.) I will say, however, to both you and my man Twin: it bothers me that this great new allegedly cosmopolitan President speaks only English. That fact seems to indicate a profound lack of interest in foreign cultures. And there's a certain arrogance in it:, as well when Obama gave that speech in Berlin last summer, not only did he deliver it in English, he didn't even provide subtitles! Not to mention the fact that he concedes a lack of interest in foreign lands in Dreams From My Father.

As for acting as though he is the only American Europeans have ever encountered: he has felt the need to "reintroduce" America - as if Americans and Europeans haven't been interacting with eachother for well, forever.

graz
04-08-2009, 01:59 PM
As for acting as though he is the only American Europeans have ever encountered: he has felt the need to "reintroduce" America - as if Americans and Europeans haven't been interacting with eachother for well, forever.

I chalk up the "reintroduce" part to mere branding. As for actual effects, just listen to today's dv with a Turkish National:http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/18868. He goes a long way towards contrasting your displeasure with the efforts of Obama in Europe as an affront to your sensibilities, against a real success in European minds.

I think you might more fairly base a critique on the present case rather than his book or your sense of his projected image.

...it bothers me that this great new allegedly cosmopolitan President speaks only English. That fact seems to indicate a profound lack of interest in foreign cultures. And there's a certain arrogance in it...

I don't agree. Perhaps in his free time - cut down on the b-ball - he could hit the Berlitz series. Which language would you suggest he tackle first?
Do you think he made a calculated, conceited choice to avoid proficiency in any language other than English? Your polyglot status may be clouding your assessment.

Added: Have you listened to any of his European Townhall exchanges?
If so, how can the case be made that he doesn't exhibit an interest outside of parochial U.S. concerns?

uncle ebeneezer
04-08-2009, 02:31 PM
Well said Graz.

Like it or not the world often takes the positions of our President as representing the positions of American's (regardless of how much overlap or conflict there may be between the two.) As such, Obama is right to re-introduce Europe to America in that his outlook and worldview are VERY different than the last guy and cynical Europeans need to assured of that before they are going to change their outlook after the past 8 years. Bush did a great job of giving the world a very bad impression of America. Obama understands that part of his job (fair or not) is to mend fences and rebuild the alliances and trust that disolved under Bush's reign.

I would also agree that studying a foreign language is not the same as taking an interest in the world. I speak only English, and yet I'm fairly certain that I take a greater interest in the world than the average American. I don't see much evidence that Obama's interest in the world is any less than any other recent president. Bush may have spoken Spanish, but so what? Did that qualify him as someone who was interested in the rest of the world?

nikkibong
04-08-2009, 02:45 PM
Graz, you'll note that my original post was regarding Obama's entire biography; not just his most recent role as President. (Of course he has to travel overseas, and project a more internationalist image now that he's in that role.) I think, then, that it's fair to consider what he has written in his autobiography, and his life's achievements up until, oh, three or so months ago. What precludes us from observing that throughout his life, Obama has not been an especially internationally-minded fellow? (And I'll add this: it seemed to me that McCain was far more interested in the world outside of our borders, but I wholeheartedly supported Obama and volunteered and voted for him.)

You'll also note that I didn't recommend that Obama start a linguistic crash course now. He has far more important things to do, like fill out NCAA brackets. (Note: joke.)

No, I don't think it was a conscious, calculated choice to shirk foreign languages: internationalism is simply not something that has interested him. He concedes this in his book.

Did I make a normative judgment regarding his presidency based on this fact? No.

Have I watched today's diavlog re: Turkey, yet? No. But I look forward to it.