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AemJeff
10-15-2008, 01:50 AM
I mentioned to somebody a few week back that it would be a good thing if we had a place to talk about art and pop culture, and related stuff here on BHTV. It's too late for me to start anything ambitious tonight - but here's a thread for that purpose.

Ocean
10-15-2008, 01:55 AM
I mentioned to somebody a few week back that it would be a good thing if we had a place to talk about art and pop culture, and related stuff here on BHTV. It's too late for me to start anything ambitious tonight - but here's a thread for that purpose.

I second the motion!

AemJeff
10-15-2008, 01:56 AM
Ok just to kick things off, and in keeping with the discussion of hip-hop and offensiveness, here's Frank Zappa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8y0JLPQl94) being pretty offensive.

Ocean
10-15-2008, 01:57 AM
Ok just to kick things off, and in keeping with the discussion of hip-hop and offensiveness, here's Frank Zappa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8y0JLPQl94) being pretty offensive.

Am I supposed to listen to it?

AemJeff
10-15-2008, 02:02 AM
Am I supposed to listen to it?

Definitely not supposed to, but Frank understood the relationship between art and performance and he knew how to make crossing that line work artistically. But it's possible (and legitimate) to take offense at what he's doing, and never really see the irony.

Ocean
10-15-2008, 02:03 AM
Definitely not supposed to, but Frank understood the relationship between art and performance and he knew how to make crossing that line work artistically. But it's possible (and legitimate) to take offense at what he's doing, and never really see the irony.

OK. I'll take the test tomorrow.

TwinSwords
10-15-2008, 10:21 AM
I mentioned to somebody a few week back that it would be a good thing if we had a place to talk about art and pop culture, and related stuff here on BHTV. It's too late for me to start anything ambitious tonight - but here's a thread for that purpose.

Excellent idea! In fact, I think we could use the whole "Life, the Universe, and Everything" forum to talk about these issues. If you wanted to talk about a new movie, or a TV show — whatever — you could start a thread about it.

Actually on another forum I used to post on, we used to start a new thread for each season of the TV show "Lost," and after each episode everyone would come in to discuss the latest developments. That was kind of fun.

Ocean
10-15-2008, 08:27 PM
I'm aware of a bunch of musicophiles among my fellow commenters, but are there any visual arts artists or fans?

uncle ebeneezer
10-16-2008, 01:44 PM
Love visual arts but my knowledge is pretty meager.

AemJeff
10-16-2008, 03:53 PM
Too offensive? Zappa took irreverence and satire into the stratosphere and really didn't care who took offense. He went so far as to testify before Congress about the importance of protecting the right to be offensive, contra Tipper Gore.

But for relief from the extremes here is something completely different: Tito Puente (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNUo8m3J1wM) effectively answering the question "what is Afro-Cuban music?

uncle ebeneezer
10-16-2008, 04:54 PM
This isn't the best Zappa interview, (I was actually more amused at seeing a young Kinsley), but boy does that bring back memories of PMRC-led culture wars:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDDIiIOFE_Q&feature=related

If you liked this, check out his Crossfire appearance with John Lofton. Pretty heated.

AemJeff
10-16-2008, 06:04 PM
This isn't the best Zappa interview, (I was actually more amused at seeing a young Kinsley), but boy does that bring back memories of PMRC-led culture wars:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDDIiIOFE_Q&feature=related

If you liked this, check out his Crossfire appearance with John Lofton. Pretty heated.

You gotta love Frank. He was giving nothing - not an inch:

Peter Gemma: Frank Zappa, The sexual revolution failed and now we’ve entered the age of AIDS. What are you and your compatriots in the rock industry doing to handle the responsibility?

Frank Zappa: It’s not my responsibility.

PG: It’s not your responsibility? You don’t think that the power and persuasion of music has over young people in America has anything to do with what’s going on the problem we’re having with sex? [sic]

FZ: No.

PG: It's as simple as that?

FZ: Yes.

PG: So you don’t think three thousand kids getting pregnant a day and a thousand of them getting an abortion a day is a problem that relates to rock music and sex lyrics?

FZ: No.


I agree, though - not one of FZ's best interview performances - he didn't past his contempt for Gemma and engage any of the arguments.

Added: Damn but I do miss FZ. Here's an interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDYzuwG-gOE&feature=related) from near the end of his life that seems to across a good sense of who he was without the layers of irony he generally wore as a mask..

uncle ebeneezer
10-16-2008, 06:24 PM
Check out the other Crossfire appearance with Bob Novak. Frank is much more verbose. Although they seem overly obsessed with "incest" songs.

The whole thing is so quaint looking back. George Michael's "I Want Your Sex" was dangerous?!!! One of the other clips I watched mentioned Motley Crue and how heavy metal music was known for preaching Demonism. It's almost amazing how out-of-touch people were in the 80's with all this cultural apocalypse stuff.

Sadly, i was watching clips from Paradise Lost (the story of the West Memphis 3) which highlighted just how far this sortof outlook can be taken by putting innocent children in prison based on them listening to metal. If you have never seen it, it is a fascinating (and disturbing) documentary, as was the sequel.

Ocean
10-16-2008, 07:29 PM
Too offensive? Zappa took irreverence and satire into the stratosphere and really didn't care who took offense. He went so far as to testify before Congress about the importance of protecting the right to be offensive, contra Tipper Gore.

But for relief from the extremes here is something completely different: Tito Puente (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNUo8m3J1wM) effectively answering the question "what is Afro-Cuban music?

Can't tell... Sorry forgot about this. Yesterday I was busy preparing a presentation about a program I run for some state politicians to secure continued funding for 2009. And I was also busy arguing with some insane commenter at BhTV. Today I can't promise to listen to it, but tomorrow I will. I read your comments. It sounds interesting. I do like heavy metal, or some of it at least. I've never cared much for Latin music, with some exceptions, mainly Brazilian music and Cuban "Nueva Trova" styles. And Santana, if you consider him 'Latin'.

Thanks for the links!

Ocean
10-16-2008, 07:30 PM
Love visual arts but my knowledge is pretty meager.

What do you like? Painting, drawing, sculpture, photography? Styles?

AemJeff
10-16-2008, 07:42 PM
Can't tell... Sorry forgot about this. Yesterday I was busy preparing a presentation about a program I run for some state politicians to secure continued funding for 2009. And I was also busy arguing with some insane commenter at BhTV. Today I can't promise to listen to it, but tomorrow I will. I read your comments. It sounds interesting. I do like heavy metal, or some of it at least. I've never cared much for Latin music, with some exceptions, mainly Brazilian music and Cuban "Nueva Trova" styles. And Santana, if you consider him 'Latin'.

Thanks for the links!

No pressure! I think this thread is about having fun and having discussions on more trivial and personal topics than we have elsewhere on BHTV. I'm just trying to keep the conversation alive!

Ocean
10-17-2008, 04:37 PM
Here is one of my favorites. Unfortunately, some files are too large to be uploaded. This is by Murillo, "Boys eating fruit" The titles are never creative...

uncle ebeneezer
10-17-2008, 05:53 PM
Here's some pretty bad-ass "Latin" music. Sorry for the 2:30 drum intro (which I know bores most non-drummers out there) but once it gets going this is pretty ridiculous:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdEMnJ6OXjQ&feature=related

uncle ebeneezer
10-17-2008, 06:00 PM
When it comes to paintings/drawings etc., I like dark/strange stuff like this

http://www.moma.org/collection/browse_results.php?criteria=O%3AAD%3AE%3A1559&page_number=1&template_id=1&sort_order=1.

Photography-wise, I love nature-oriented (Ansel Adams etc.), photo-journalism and of course, nude ladies ;-)

Ocean
10-17-2008, 06:45 PM
Too offensive? Zappa took irreverence and satire into the stratosphere and really didn't care who took offense. He went so far as to testify before Congress about the importance of protecting the right to be offensive, contra Tipper Gore.

But for relief from the extremes here is something completely different: Tito Puente (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNUo8m3J1wM) effectively answering the question "what is Afro-Cuban music?


OK. Zappa isn't offensive. I have some thoughts to share after the hip-hop discussion and from that to Zappa, and some of the points that you, graz and uncle have been hinting at.

I think you will all agree that popular art emerges as an expression of a particular aspect of the culture from which it originates. That culture can be universal, or regional or local. People from another culture may or may not share or even understand those issues. When I listen to Zappa, I can intellectually understand what he is saying but it doesn't 'strike a note' for me. I don't think it's because I'm a woman, but rather because I'm a woman from another culture. In a related way, when I first came to this country I had to learn the way this particular culture negotiates a man-woman relationship. And in many respects I'm still learning.

Going back to Zappa, as I said, the deeper meaning escapes me. You mentioned 'capturing the irony'. I don't know that is necessarily the main problem, but rather that even with the irony thrown in, the dynamic is still 'foreign' to me at an emotional level. I don't find it offensive because it doesn't express overt violence. But if you start digging deeper and deeper, there are layers of reactions and counter-reactions. Too complex to discuss here.

Tito Puente. I don't know much about music. I think I disclosed that before. However, his music, as well as a lot of the Caribbean and Brazilian music find their roots in African rhythms. There is a 'primal' quality to the rhythm which can be powerful at times. I find it interesting in the sense of tracing its origins, in the same way any person from any culture could. However, this music isn't in any way related to what I would consider the music from 'my culture'. In spite of that I was able to appreciate the energy both in the music and the dancers.

So, what can I say? None of those are my cup of tea... I tend to be crudely honest...


I'll throw in my comment about uncle's contribution, Michel Camilo. Well, although Latin jazz isn't my favorite, I can say this one was a few notches above the others (in my preference). In this piece he went through numerous Latin styles and transitioned them quite well. And I'm pretty much speechless about his virtue as a pianist. For god's sake! I was exhausted at the end of the 10 minutes, just from following the pace and looking at his hands. Nothing to worry I took a deep breath and recovered.

Ocean
10-17-2008, 06:52 PM
When it comes to paintings/drawings etc., I like dark/strange stuff like this

http://www.moma.org/collection/browse_results.php?criteria=O%3AAD%3AE%3A1559&page_number=1&template_id=1&sort_order=1.

Photography-wise, I love nature-oriented (Ansel Adams etc.), photo-journalism and of course, nude ladies ;-)

Hmm... Very interesting, uncle, veeeeery interesting... just kidding!

uncle ebeneezer
10-17-2008, 07:09 PM
Interesting question (was there a question in there? ;-)

I am Italian/Croatian with a little culture of the former (great Italian recipes, grandma with statues of saints etc.) and not so much on the latter. Overall I'm more "American" than anything else. I feel like very little of the art that interests me comes through my heritage. Unlike you, I'm very moved by Latin music (stuff like Michel Camillo) and Afro-Beat music (Femi Kuti etc.). Though I'm not a big dancer, I really FEEL those rythyms. Italian & Croatian music, not so much. I like Zappa because he IS offensive. Check out his tunes Catholic Girls, Jewish Princess, Why Does It Hurt When I Pee etc. (you may not be offended, but they are certainly provocative to many people, which is why I love them,...plus to me they are funny.) That said I love rock music and jazz, both of which are essentially "American" so who knows, maybe my tastes do come from my culture. Even though I detest Country music.

Glad you enjoyed the MC clip. There's alot of really bad latin-jazz out there, but his bands are always really top-notch. I mean, i send clips like that to many of my friends who are pro musicians and their response is always something like "ridiculous."

You mentioned liking heavy metal. What particular stuff? Just curious.

Ocean
10-17-2008, 07:30 PM
Interesting question (was there a question in there? ;-)

No.


You mentioned liking heavy metal. What particular stuff? Just curious.

You're pushing it, young man!

OK, let's see if my memory permits. I'll probably be mixing metal with other stuff, but hey, who cares? Jimi Hendrix (hope you consider him as the root and cause of heavy metal), Aerosmith (is it metal or plain r&r?), Alice Cooper, Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, Steppenwolf (well only one song), The Who and a bunch of stuff that my 19 year old son listens to and I don't have a clue what it is but sounds like heavy metal to me...

uncle ebeneezer
10-17-2008, 08:27 PM
Yeah, Sabbath would be the only one that I would say is definitely metal...the rest are simply hard-rock or even classic rock. But I'm a big fan of all of them. Your list is entirely American/Brittish (except Steppenwolf, Germany) so I'm not sure how that fits your culture equation.

I would guess that you're "not getting" Zappa is more because Zappa is the kind of thing that alot of people don't get, not because of any cultural difference. To paraphrase Spinal Tap, his "appeal is selective." He is like Dungeons & Dragons or Mystery Science Theater 3,000 (or BloggingHeads, for that matter.) The people who get it think it's brilliant, but they are a relatively small percentage of the populace.

Tell your son to check out TOOL (you should too). Lotsa deep psychological references in their lyrics. Not your typical sex/drugs/anger kinda metal lyrics. And their videos are amazingly creative:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUXBCdt5IPg&feature=related

Ocean
10-17-2008, 08:55 PM
Yeah, Sabbath would be the only one that I would say is definitely metal...the rest are simply hard-rock or even classic rock. But I'm a big fan of all of them. Your list is entirely American/Brittish (except Steppenwolf, Germany) so I'm not sure how that fits your culture equation.

I would guess that you're "not getting" Zappa is more because Zappa is the kind of thing that alot of people don't get, not because of any cultural difference. To paraphrase Spinal Tap, his "appeal is selective." He is like Dungeons & Dragons or Mystery Science Theater 3,000 (or BloggingHeads, for that matter.) The people who get it think it's brilliant, but they are a relatively small percentage of the populace.


I'll check on your suggestion later. But I wanted to follow up with a clarification on the culture issue. I grew up listening to American/Brittish music. I probably listened to that in the same 'amount' as your average American person. This kind of music is what (young) people in my country listened to predominantly. There were a few more other musical styles that were popular then, like Brazilian music, Latin American folk music, and some other European styles. I don't know what people listen to now.

So, from that perspective, although this music is typical for my 'culture', it doesn't mean that other elements of this culture are going to be shared too. Like musicals or tap dancing, or Frank Sinatra. Well, those were more of my parents's age than mine, but still...

There are aspects of culture that are more subtle and that when not shared, sure, you just don't get it. But you don't get it because it's meaningless. It's difficult to explain, but the closest would be that there are jokes that are more or less universal, while others are very specific to a group. The ingroup people will get the joke, the others will not. It isn't about not having the ability to understand, but rather that you would need to be aware of something that you don't know about. Isn't it kind of obvious?

Ocean
10-17-2008, 11:41 PM
This isn't the best Zappa interview, (I was actually more amused at seeing a young Kinsley), but boy does that bring back memories of PMRC-led culture wars:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDDIiIOFE_Q&feature=related

If you liked this, check out his Crossfire appearance with John Lofton. Pretty heated.

I just listened to this interview. Kinsley looks exactly the same, just a little shinier back then.

I don't know, uncle, I still think there's something missing. What's the big deal? I mean he looks arrogant and not particularly informative. I can see he is firm in what he thinks, but other than that... Perhaps there's more to it, which I'm not aware of. The cultural stuff I was talking about before.

I mean, this interview took place in 1987? And they are discussing music that contains the words sex or masturbation as being a problem? Actually they were talking about providing ratings so that people would know whether there are certain contents in the material, just like movies, and now video games. What's the big deal with that? See I don't get it.

AemJeff
10-18-2008, 12:12 AM
OK. Zappa isn't offensive. I have some thoughts to share after the hip-hop discussion and from that to Zappa, and some of the points that you, graz and uncle have been hinting at.

I think you will all agree that popular art emerges as an expression of a particular aspect of the culture from which it originates. That culture can be universal, or regional or local. People from another culture may or may not share or even understand those issues. When I listen to Zappa, I can intellectually understand what he is saying but it doesn't 'strike a note' for me. I don't think it's because I'm a woman, but rather because I'm a woman from another culture. In a related way, when I first came to this country I had to learn the way this particular culture negotiates a man-woman relationship. And in many respects I'm still learning.

Going back to Zappa, as I said, the deeper meaning escapes me. You mentioned 'capturing the irony'. I don't know that is necessarily the main problem, but rather that even with the irony thrown in, the dynamic is still 'foreign' to me at an emotional level. I don't find it offensive because it doesn't express overt violence. But if you start digging deeper and deeper, there are layers of reactions and counter-reactions. Too complex to discuss here.

Tito Puente. I don't know much about music. I think I disclosed that before. However, his music, as well as a lot of the Caribbean and Brazilian music find their roots in African rhythms. There is a 'primal' quality to the rhythm which can be powerful at times. I find it interesting in the sense of tracing its origins, in the same way any person from any culture could. However, this music isn't in any way related to what I would consider the music from 'my culture'. In spite of that I was able to appreciate the energy both in the music and the dancers.

So, what can I say? None of those are my cup of tea... I tend to be crudely honest...


I'll throw in my comment about uncle's contribution, Michel Camilo. Well, although Latin jazz isn't my favorite, I can say this one was a few notches above the others (in my preference). In this piece he went through numerous Latin styles and transitioned them quite well. And I'm pretty much speechless about his virtue as a pianist. For god's sake! I was exhausted at the end of the 10 minutes, just from following the pace and looking at his hands. Nothing to worry I took a deep breath and recovered.

I'm amused, fascinated, by how complicated each person's relationship to individual cultural items always proves to be. "Bobby Brown" always makes me laugh - the way Zappa parodies Top 40 conventions by flagrantly violating them in some ways, and adhering precisely in others, is virtuoso parody - made even better by the tune's stylistic perfection. All that plus a ridiculously puerile lyric that ought to argue against any idea that this is a sophisticated piece of work. It would be hard for me to exaggerate how cool I think that is.

It seemed relevant, though, because of the hip-hop discussion in another thread, and the ongoing cultural debate regarding offensive content in pop music. Zappa had a lot to say, explicitly, and indirectly through his work, about that. My opinion - I think judgments about the quality of a work are generally distinct from judgments on its textual content, except to the extent that the text is the work - was certainly formed with reference to my exposure to artists like Zappa and Brian Eno.

I added Tito Puente afterwords mostly as a counterpoint to the Zappa song and as an answer to the question "What is Afro-Cuban" from a PM. And because I think that piece is a ton of fun.

I haven't had the time to listen to Eb's response to that yet, but I shall, soon.

Ocean
10-18-2008, 12:47 AM
OK. I wish I had another word instead of culture to express what I mean, but I guess I'll have to stick to this overused term.

So you point out the dissonance between the puerile lyrics and the tune's stylistic perfection. From my perspective, I can't judge the lyrics as puerile, because I don't have a context or perspective to appreciate that (negative) quality. It seemed to me pretty puerile, but, perhaps I've already conditioned myself to not make such judgments when the object of analysis is unknown to me. That's as much as I can say. I think you may understand what I mean.

But, on the bright side, this thread made me reminisce of those old times and I searched you-tube for some of the Brazilian music that I like. What I found is somehow too mellow for this format and of course unintelligible (in Portuguese) when the lyrics are essential to the style.

But here is one of my favorites songs, bad that you won't understand the lyrics. The name of the song is 'Calice' (Chalice) and the main lyric repeat something like "keep away that chalice, father, with that red tinted bloody wine..." I think this was filmed in 1973, and shows some elements of the hippie /esoteric/ multiracial culture with some elements of the gay (truly gay) aspect of Brazilian society. A lot of symbolism of the times. Of course, I appreciate the visual greatly. Watch and listen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXGDlMMOEWg).

uncle ebeneezer
10-18-2008, 12:48 AM
I think the issue was the slippery slope idea. If a particular record company doesn't want to choose to carry music with a certain content, or if they want to put some sortof warning on the label, that's one thing, but I'm very leery at the idea of the governement mandating that sortof thing. Not only as a musician who takes artistic freedom very seriously, but also from the point of the record company being penalized by having to put on a tag that affects sales of it's product.

The heart of the issue, to me, back in the 80's was the fact that the self-righteous claims that the PRMC were making were so tenuous. I still haven't seen too many studies that convince me that lyrics for any music do any damage to individuals or society as a whole. And the idea of the government restricting speech based on a mere interpretation of taste frightens me, because the obvious next step would be to start judging what political ideas are dangerous and worthy of restriction. Also the PRMC made all sotrs of claims about heavy metal and how it promoted satanism, suicide, sex etc., when there has been little to no evidence that those conections had any merit. I think Kinsley's point says it all. Every generation becomes fixated about how much worse things are now as far as sex/violence etc., in art. And in hindsight it always looks ridiculous. Most of the music that the PRMC fought against can now be quaintly watched on VH-1. The fact that we routinely find todays boogeyman to be nothing more than a figment of tomorrow's imagination, is all the evidence to me, that unless there is a REALLY solid scientific evidence for any actual corelation between art and cultural problems, then we should always err on the side of free speech.

This wasn't one of Zappa's better interviews. And yes, he came off rather arrogant. I was more sharing it because of the Kinsley nostalgia.

Ocean
10-18-2008, 12:54 AM
OK. You sort of convinced me. But, what more scientific evidence of serious brain damage by heavy metal do you need? What about Ossie?

Just kidding... see my previous post.

AemJeff
10-18-2008, 12:59 AM
Here's some pretty bad-ass "Latin" music. Sorry for the 2:30 drum intro (which I know bores most non-drummers out there) but once it gets going this is pretty ridiculous:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdEMnJ6OXjQ&feature=related

Eb that was deadly. No complaint from me about the intro, whatsoever. Isn't it amazing how densely musical tiny (trio, quartet) jazz arrangements can be? Camilo is an incredible player - not to slight the rhythm section. I love this kind of thing.

AemJeff
10-18-2008, 01:30 AM
OK. I wish I had another word instead of culture to express what I mean, but I guess I'll have to stick to this overused term.

So you point out the dissonance between the puerile lyrics and the tune's stylistic perfection. From my perspective, I can't judge the lyrics as puerile, because I don't have a context or perspective to appreciate that (negative) quality. It seemed to me pretty puerile, but, perhaps I've already conditioned myself to not make such judgments when the object of analysis is unknown to me. That's as much as I can say. I think you may understand what I mean.

But, on the bright side, this thread made me reminisce of those old times and I searched you-tube for some of the Brazilian music that I like. What I found is somehow too mellow for this format and of course unintelligible (in Portuguese) when the lyrics are essential to the style.

But here is one of my favorites songs, bad that you won't understand the lyrics. The name of the song is 'Calice' (Chalice) and the main lyric repeat something like "keep away that chalice, father, with that red tinted bloody wine..." I think this was filmed in 1973, and shows some elements of the hippie /esoteric/ multiracial culture with some elements of the gay (truly gay) aspect of Brazilian society. A lot of symbolism of the times. Of course, I appreciate the visual greatly. Watch and listen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXGDlMMOEWg).

I think I follow what you're saying in reference to the Zappa tune. It's hard to have a context for that sort of thing when you've had limited exposure to it. You nevertheless seem to have aa level of understanding even if it's hard to relate to viscerally.

I love Samba and Bossa Nova - initially because of the American jazz artist Stan Getz - but I have a small collection of Brazilian releases. I'm quite used to not understanding a word of the Portuguese lyrics. In combination with the beautiful, understated melodies, particularly when sung by women, have a peculiarly calming, hypnotic effect on me. Perfect for sipping whisky and thinking about nothing. I enjoyed Cálice censurado quite a bit.

uncle ebeneezer
10-18-2008, 01:36 AM
It's funny. The other night I was listening to Blizzard of Oz, and I noticed how pretty his music is and how surprisingly "musical" he is with his arrangements and his voice. And listening to the lyrics, I couldn't help think "how could people have ever been scared of this stuff?" He was totally playing into this nearly ridiculous image as a Prince of Darkness that many people actually took serious. Now we see him on reality tv and everyone realizes that he was just being an entertainer and he's as normal (or messed up) as the rest of us but hardly a threat to anyone..

I'm not saying that there is some art out there that doesn't make even me a little queasy. I've heard stuff that is so angry, that it actually turns me off (because I think too much emphasis on anger...or anything else, just isn't healthy and i don't want to live that way.) But it is so funny that people can feel so threatened by music, art, literature, whatever and have this whole crazy witch-hunt mentality as if a song called "Bark at the Moon" seriously scares them.

That band TOOL that I mentioned was widely misunderstood when they first came out because people thought songs like "Prison Sex" were dark and sinister and even satanic etc. It contained the lines: "I need you to feel this, I need this to make me whole." And "I have found some kinda temporary sanity in this sh*t, blood and c*m on my hands." And those words combined with the song's title led everyone to believe that it was glorifying prison-rape and domination. Then over the years, word leaked out that the lead singer (who was abused in some fashion as a child) intended the song to be about breaking the cycle of abuse and that it is actually a celebration of those who manage to NOT do what was done to them, it was seen in a much different light. And I read somewhere that the really creepy video they did for the song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5sIXUbMgF0

has actually been used by therapists who were trying to help victims get through issues of childhood abuse. And to me this illustrates the big danger about censorship. It's based on an interpretation of something that is totally subjective. I could very easily see legislators in an 80's culture war wanting to ban a song about Prison Sex even though a different interpretation can have a very positive message or impact on people. And I don't ever want people to be denied of something moving, because it makes some legislator feel skittish. Plus, I just don't like when somebody tries to tell me what I can and can't (or shouldn't) listen to.

PS I am not affiliated with or working for TOOL, they just happen to serve as a great example and I love their music. You should check out their cover of "No Quarter." It's epic.

Ocean
10-18-2008, 01:43 AM
I'm glad you liked it. Which Brazilian singer do you have?

Maria Creuza, Maria Betania, Gal Costa, any of those?

Here is 'Samba em Préludio' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYETPXbWscU) with Vinicius (first voice), Maria Creuza (second voice) and Toquinho (third voice). It's veeeery mellow. Good for a rainy day. ;)

AemJeff
10-18-2008, 01:46 AM
It's funny. The other night I was listening to Blizzard of Oz, and I noticed how pretty his music is and how surprisingly "musical" he is with his arrangements and his voice. And listening to the lyrics, I couldn't help think "how could people have ever been scared of this stuff?" He was totally playing into this nearly ridiculous image as a Prince of Darkness that many people actually took serious. Now we see him on reality tv and everyone realizes that he was just being an entertainer and he's as normal (or messed up) as the rest of us but hardly a threat to anyone..

I'm not saying that there is some art out there that doesn't make even me a little queasy. I've heard stuff that is so angry, that it actually turns me off (because I think too much emphasis on anger...or anything else, just isn't healthy and i don't want to live that way.) But it is so funny that people can feel so threatened by music, art, literature, whatever and have this whole crazy witch-hunt mentality as if a song called "Bark at the Moon" seriously scares them.

That band TOOL that I mentioned was widely misunderstood when they first came out because people thought songs like "Prison Sex" were dark and sinister and even satanic etc. It contained the lines: "I need you to feel this, I need this to make me whole." And "I have found some kinda temporary sanity in this sh*t, blood and c*m on my hands." And those words combined with the song's title led everyone to believe that it was glorifying prison-rape and domination. Then over the years, word leaked out that the lead singer (who was abused in some fashion as a child) intended the song to be about breaking the cycle of abuse and that it is actually a celebration of those who manage to NOT do what was done to them, it was seen in a much different light. And I read somewhere that the really creepy video they did for the song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5sIXUbMgF0

has actually been used by therapists who were trying to help victims get through issues of childhood abuse. And to me this illustrates the big danger about censorship. It's based on an interpretation of something that is totally subjective. I could very easily see legislators in an 80's culture war wanting to ban a song about Prison Sex even though a different interpretation can have a very positive message or impact on people. And I don't ever want people to be denied of something moving, because it makes some legislator feel skittish. Plus, I just don't like when somebody tries to tell me what I can and can't (or shouldn't) listen to.

PS I am not affiliated with or working for TOOL, they just happen to serve as a great example and I love their music. You should check out their cover of "No Quarter." It's epic.

And, to add to what Eb's said (and with which I agree completely) - Tool is about as original and musical a band - particularly within the parameters of loud, guitar oriented rock music - since, well, the only other comparable band I can think of is King Crimson. (That comparison, coming from me, is superlative praise.)

AemJeff
10-18-2008, 01:53 AM
I'm glad you liked it. Which Brazilian singer do you have?

Maria Creuza, Maria Betania, Gal Costa, any of those?

Here is 'Samba em Préludio' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYETPXbWscU) with Vinicius (first voice), Maria Creuza (second voice) and Toquinho (third voice). It's veeeery mellow. Good for a rainy day. ;)

I don't know any of those names. (But now I have something to look for on Amazon Tomorrow!) One of my favorites is Marisa Monte (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haAppvK_DlI).

Ocean
10-18-2008, 01:58 AM
http://www.thecentralword.com/forums/images/smilies/ugh.gif


That band TOOL that I mentioned was widely misunderstood when they first came out because people thought songs like "Prison Sex" were dark and sinister and even satanic etc. bla, blah, blah
http://www.spartantailgate.com/forums/images/smilies/eww.gif
And I read somewhere that the really creepy video they did for the song:




http://www.spartantailgate.com/forums/images/smilies/scared.gif

http://www.spartantailgate.com/forums/images/smilies/censored.gif

uncle ebeneezer
10-18-2008, 02:02 AM
I have very little knowledge of Brazilian acts but Trio De Paz has some good stuff. Check them out.

Jeff, here's another ridiculous Camillo clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXT07AnkYRE

and Ocean (and Jeff), wow looks like we have this thread all to our lonseome selves, if you guys like a fine piano player, this guy will break your heart:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj-HgLMFNuE&feature=related

Let me know if you want anymore great music links and i will happily send them to you. Cheers-- Uncle Eb

Ocean
10-18-2008, 02:24 AM
Well when I posted my other, more graphic comment, I actually hadn't watched the video. Now that I have: http://www.spartantailgate.com/forums/images/smilies/freak.gif

I liked the music, and the video..., what can I say? Are you watching too much science fiction? Looking at it from the bright side it does have some maternal aspects that one can relate to. Somewhat gross, but, if at the end, the dismembered child hadn't been placed in the stone drawer, and it had been rebuilt, and the tall and thin maternal alien figure had nurtured it a bit more and perhaps give it some food and toys and a book or two... it would have been a much happier ending. Don't you think?

And if I hadn't taught anatomy for a couple of years, working with cadavers, and if I hadn't done another couple of years of surgery, I think I would have found it somewhat more repugnant. But, creepy, yes!

uncle ebeneezer
10-18-2008, 02:52 AM
Somewhat gross, but, if at the end, the dismembered child hadn't been placed in the stone drawer, and it had been rebuilt, and the tall and thin maternal alien figure had nurtured it a bit more and perhaps give it some food and toys and a book or two... it would have been a much happier ending. Don't you think?

I agree, but the happier ending is not to be expected. To me the beauty of a band like Tool is that they are willing to embrace the truly inspiring message: that even when we don't get the happy ending, we go on anyway. And despite the horrible things that may have been done to some people, they find a way to stop the cycle. I've always been amazed by how many abused people become abusers. It totally defies the logic of the way my mind operates, but it seems to be a very real truth (and possibly the biggest horror) of abuse. This makes those who do manage to break the cycle even more note-worthy.

uncle ebeneezer
10-18-2008, 02:55 AM
Tool toured with King Crimson and said it was their dream come true. I think I read that Maynard said "we really should be opening for THEM."

Ocean
10-18-2008, 03:09 AM
I agree, but the happier ending is not to be expected. To me the beauty of a band like Tool is that they are willing to embrace the truly inspiring message: that even when we don't get the happy ending, we go on anyway. And despite the horrible things that may have been done to some people, they find a way to stop the cycle. I've always been amazed by how many abused people become abusers. It totally defies the logic of the way my mind operates, but it seems to be a very real truth (and possibly the biggest horror) of abuse. This makes those who do manage to break the cycle even more note-worthy.

Uncle,


I have been taking this very 'light' and with humor. But if you want a moment of serious thoughts, let me remind you that in my profession I'm in very close contact with people that have been victims of all kinds of abuse. I have treated holocaust survivors that, in spite of my well developed skills of emotional neutrality, have brought me to tears. I've worked with people who are dying. I've worked with people that are double suicide survivors, like a father that before committing suicide killed his son, but then failed to die because the bullet went through his mouth and brain but in an area that isn't lethal. I've worked with men and women who are victims of rape, incest, and repeated sexual abuse, some of them since they were babies.

When I listen to music I'm looking for something else. When I draw or paint I celebrate life, because death and the dark aspects of life can be found everywhere. I choose where to look.

Now cheer up! Life is short!

graz
10-18-2008, 10:27 AM
OK. I wish I had another word instead of culture to express what I mean, but I guess I'll have to stick to this overused term.

So you point out the dissonance between the puerile lyrics and the tune's stylistic perfection. From my perspective, I can't judge the lyrics as puerile, because I don't have a context or perspective to appreciate that (negative) quality. It seemed to me pretty puerile, but, perhaps I've already conditioned myself to not make such judgments when the object of analysis is unknown to me. That's as much as I can say. I think you may understand what I mean.

But, on the bright side, this thread made me reminisce of those old times and I searched you-tube for some of the Brazilian music that I like. What I found is somehow too mellow for this format and of course unintelligible (in Portuguese) when the lyrics are essential to the style.

But here is one of my favorites songs, bad that you won't understand the lyrics. The name of the song is 'Calice' (Chalice) and the main lyric repeat something like "keep away that chalice, father, with that red tinted bloody wine..." I think this was filmed in 1973, and shows some elements of the hippie /esoteric/ multiracial culture with some elements of the gay (truly gay) aspect of Brazilian society. A lot of symbolism of the times. Of course, I appreciate the visual greatly. Watch and listen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXGDlMMOEWg).

Ocean: Through less than six degrees of separation, here is a link to what allowed me my first listen to "Calice."

http://www.amazon.com/Brazil-Classics-Vol-Beleza-Tropical/dp/B000002LG3/ref=pd_sim_m_njs_1

The selections were a gateway for me to other music by these and other related artists. You must be familiar with many of the artists and songs on this compilation? David Byrne produced it, he has worked with Brian Eno, AemJeff loves Eno and Zappa. There is the link.

graz
10-18-2008, 11:19 AM
Now cheer up! Life is short!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxQgXgS5G3c

Ocean
10-18-2008, 11:22 AM
Ocean: Through less than six degrees of separation, here is a link to what allowed me my first listen to "Calice."

http://www.amazon.com/Brazil-Classics-Vol-Beleza-Tropical/dp/B000002LG3/ref=pd_sim_m_njs_1

The selections were a gateway for me to other music by these and other related artists. You must be familiar with many of the artists and songs on this compilation? David Byrne produced it, he has worked with Brian Eno, AemJeff loves Eno and Zappa. There is the link.

I looked at it. And yes, I'm familiar with most of the artists and songs. I have several CD's and also MP3 with them.

Thanks!

Ocean
10-18-2008, 11:26 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxQgXgS5G3c

Hey graz! SkepticDoc and you are two of a kind!

I don't like musicals that much. And the bright side of life is something that I discovered quite some time ago. I think...

graz
10-18-2008, 01:21 PM
Italian & Croatian music, not so much. I like Zappa because he IS offensive.

At the risk of being offensive (if you harbor any latent ethnic tendencies) -in honor of the late Zappa- How about Serbian music? Like that featured in the movie: Underground, which I highly recommend. Here is a sample:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKRCo3347fw

And for visual consideration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG2Vj86B2hg

graz
10-18-2008, 01:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6Mw6b1T50U&feature=related

AemJeff
10-18-2008, 01:53 PM
Hey graz - in keeping with my general theme, so far, in this thread - I'll call your "Life of Brian" and raise with one "Meaning of Life." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8)

uncle ebeneezer
10-19-2008, 01:22 AM
Ocean- I have no lack of "happy" music that I listen to as well (one of my other favorite bands is Phish and they are very whimsical and goofy), but I do tend to find melancholy/tortured art to be much more powerful than bubble gum pop, that's for sure. If I dealt with the kind of stuff you do every day, I don't know HOW I would unwind. I like dark stuff, at a comfortable artistic distance. No big urge to deal with the real thing, but I admire people like you who do.

Ocean
10-19-2008, 02:14 AM
Ocean- I have no lack of "happy" music that I listen to as well (one of my other favorite bands is Phish and they are very whimsical and goofy), but I do tend to find melancholy/tortured art to be much more powerful than bubble gum pop, that's for sure. If I dealt with the kind of stuff you do every day, I don't know HOW I would unwind. I like dark stuff, at a comfortable artistic distance. No big urge to deal with the real thing, but I admire people like you who do.

Thank you, uncle. But no bubble gum pop either. There's plenty of music to match or counter the mood at the moment. But I find nature, kids, and drawing / painting to work best for me. And BhTV of course...

Ocean
10-19-2008, 11:25 AM
Hey graz - in keeping with my general theme, so far, in this thread - I'll call your "Life of Brian" and raise with one "Meaning of Life." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8)

Hey! Nice song!

But I wouldn't think that such sacred thing is ever wasted... but of course, I'm not an expert. And I'm not expecting you, guys, to elaborate on that...

Prude Ocean

AemJeff
10-19-2008, 09:16 PM
Hey! Nice song!

But I wouldn't think that such sacred thing is ever wasted... but of course, I'm not an expert. And I'm not expecting you, guys, to elaborate on that...

Prude Ocean

There can only be one response (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK4oXs5QeoQ) to this. (Give the vid about a minute and a half, before it starts to seem relevant.)

SkepticDoc
10-22-2008, 05:33 PM
Hey graz! SkepticDoc and you are two of a kind!

I don't like musicals that much. And the bright side of life is something that I discovered quite some time ago. I think...

Somebody called?

Looks like there are plenty of Monty Python deviants around here:)

AemJeff
10-23-2008, 03:03 PM
This is way too topical to really belong in this thread - but if anything at all qualifies as "Cultural Detritus" this certainly does (http://www.break.com/index/unbelievable-mccain-vs-obama-dance-off.html)!

SkepticDoc
10-23-2008, 08:05 PM
For the hispanophiles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN9z585ziww

For the Orientally inclined:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPbQ9sDqO60

SkepticDoc
10-23-2008, 10:04 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3X_8DKHjMQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z2JGT2OvDQ

Ocean
10-23-2008, 11:33 PM
For the hispanophiles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN9z585ziww

For the Orientally inclined:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPbQ9sDqO60

Hey! You found a version with much better visual by Mercedes and one in Japanese?

For those that may be curious. This song, interpreted by the Argentinian Mercedes Sosa, is about the suicide by drowning (in the ocean!) of an also Argentinian woman, the poetess Alfonsina Storni. She had breast cancer and sunk in profound depression which ended in her dramatic suicide. Before her death she wrote a poem describing a beautiful experience of drowning. That poem became the song lyric. It's a beautiful piece, at least for those that can understand it. And certainly one of my favorites in Latin American 'Folk'.

Thank you Skeptic!

SkepticDoc
10-24-2008, 06:25 AM
I like this version more, sung by Tania Libertad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AgpTJNmihM

Another version, sung by Ginamaria Hidalgo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhLrF-RXLBY

Coming back to folk music, any recommendations for Russian?

I also like Woody Guthrie, and his son Arlo!

FYI:

Alfonsina lyrics
Por la blanda arena que lame el mar
su pequeña huella no vuelve más
un sendero solo de pena y silencio llegó
hasta el agua profunda
y un sendero solo de penas nudas llegó
hasta la espuma

Sabe Dios que angustia te acompañó
qué dolores viejos calló tu voz
para recostarte arrullada en el canto
de las caracolas marinas
la canción que canta en el fondo oscuro del mar
la caracola

Te vas Alfonsina con tu soledad
¿qué poemas nuevos fuiste a buscar?
una voz antigua de viento y de sal
te requiebra el alma
y la está llevando
y te vas, hacia allá como en sueños,
dormida Alfonsina, vestida de mar.

Cinco sirenitas te llevarán
por camino de algas y de coral
y fosforescentes caballos marinos harán
una ronda a tu lado.
Y los habitantes del agua van a nadar
pronto a tu lado.

Bájame la lámpara un poco más
déjame que duerma, nodriza en paz
y si llama él no le digas que estoy,
dile que Alfonsina no vuelve.
y si llama él no le digas nunca que estoy,
di que me he ido.

Te vas Alfonsina con tu soledad
¿qué poemas nuevos fuiste a buscar?
una voz antigua de viento y de sal
te requiebra el alma
y la está llevando
y te vas, hacia allá como en sueños,
dormida Alfonsina, vestida de mar.

SkepticDoc
10-27-2008, 07:53 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U2nBre-JEU&feature=PlayList&p=ECD327494CDE9A06&index=0&playnext=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdWBdqkxHKg&feature=related

AemJeff
10-27-2008, 08:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U2nBre-JEU&feature=PlayList&p=ECD327494CDE9A06&index=0&playnext=1

C'mon Doc! Give us some context. Why do you like it? How did you come across it? Controversy please!

AemJeff
10-27-2008, 08:04 PM
Ahh! I've just seen the textual coda on the vid. Poignant.

SkepticDoc
10-27-2008, 08:14 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCFibtD3H_k&feature=related

SkepticDoc
10-27-2008, 08:17 PM
C'mon Doc! Give us some context. Why do you like it? How did you come across it? Controversy please!

I came across it listening to a "Hellbound Allee" podcast http://www.hellboundalleee.com/

SkepticDoc
10-27-2008, 08:24 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF5JtI_OPCg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWPmj2tfiVs

This one is very sad, a death from AIDS before the science was known and the issue of homosexuality as a non-choice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeTN4wT2--U&feature=related

SkepticDoc
11-03-2008, 07:17 PM
more detritus, this time in French!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFRuLFR91e4&feature=related

AemJeff
11-03-2008, 09:50 PM
Well, as long as we're speaking French (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UVw5C0SDkc)... (Though Django was actually a gypsy from Belgium.)

SkepticDoc
11-04-2008, 08:25 AM
Nice, universal, no words, soothing for troubled times...

Somehow "Soylent Green" came to my mind, when E. G. Robinson's character chose the "Pastorale" for his euthanasia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbJTBBoDFH0

AemJeff
01-15-2009, 11:59 AM
Kathy G:
Neil Young, as full of piss and vinegar as ever, proves his enduring awesomeness. My life's ambition when I get old is to be every bit as much of a cranky old lady as he is a cranky old man.

Anyway, I think this song captures the mood of the country in the final shitty days of President Clusterfuck as well as any I've heard.




I sure wish we could embed videos here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyfbC2-UzXg).

bjkeefe
01-15-2009, 12:30 PM
I sure wish we could embed videos here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyfbC2-UzXg).

A link is just as good. Thanks for that.

AemJeff
01-15-2009, 12:31 PM
Somehow in the context of the above, it's interesting to look back to here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq0tAoO3-xQ).

Ocean
10-04-2009, 10:17 AM
Mercedes Sosa died today at the age of 74.

One of my favorite Latin American folk singers. Here (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113479453&ft=1&f=1001) is a brief article about her.

And here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN9z585ziww) is the same song that was linked to above in this thread.

Whatfur
10-04-2009, 11:14 AM
Ok just to kick things off, and in keeping with the discussion of hip-hop and offensiveness, here's Frank Zappa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8y0JLPQl94) being pretty offensive.

I think it could be argued that Zappa was a microcosm to rock culture where hip-hop is a bit more than that...to the point of being an culture itself.

Whatfur
10-04-2009, 11:18 AM
Nice, universal, no words, soothing for troubled times...

Somehow "Soylent Green" came to my mind, when E. G. Robinson's character chose the "Pastorale" for his euthanasia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbJTBBoDFH0


Actually Soylent Green should come to mind when you think of government healthcare.

Have enjoyed you musical links. Thanks.

graz
10-04-2009, 11:23 AM
I think it could be argued that Zappa was a microcosm to rock culture where hip-hop is a bit more than that...to the point of being an culture itself.

Your posts=hip-hop

Vulgar, violent, dysfunctionally literate.
It takes one to know one, no?

SkepticDoc
10-04-2009, 11:49 AM
I believe in the "Goodness" of people, government healthcare would be fantastic if if we spent the same amount for people as the war/mercenary expenses.

Coming back to "culture": for cinema fans, a good guide to start with are the Oscar lists, particularly the foreign film awards and nominees (Wikipedia has several lists), also look for the Cannes "Palme d'Or" awards and the "Goyas" (Spanish).

Anybody can download most films from www.thepiratebay.org, you need to download a bit-torrent manager (Miro, others) and the VLC media player.

One has to check that appropriate subtitles version is downloaded.

I watched "Indochine" and was amused that the available subtitles were only French and Spanish. Of course it made me review the history of Vietnam, the influence of the Jesuits and made me depressed to realize that the USA meddled in the internal affairs of innocent people and not only did we mess up Vietnam, but Laos and Cambodia as well... Can we ever learn?

bjkeefe
10-05-2009, 06:45 PM
Mercedes Sosa died today at the age of 74.

One of my favorite Latin American folk singers. Here (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113479453&ft=1&f=1001) is a brief article about her.

And here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN9z585ziww) is the same song that was linked to above in this thread.

Lengthy NYT obit here (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/05/arts/music/05sosa.html), in case you haven't seen it. Nice lede:

Mercedes Sosa, the Argentine folk singer whose politically charged repertory, sung in a powerful, earthy and impassioned alto voice, led her to be known throughout Latin America as “the voice of the voiceless,” died early Sunday in Buenos Aires. She was 74.

Ocean
10-05-2009, 07:16 PM
Lengthy NYT obit here (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/05/arts/music/05sosa.html), in case you haven't seen it. Nice lede:

Thank you.

SkepticDoc
10-05-2009, 08:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R86vh-mWPdM&videos=-Sdlsxe63os&playnext_from=TL&playnext=1

Whatfur
10-05-2009, 08:43 PM
Kathy G:


I sure wish we could embed videos here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyfbC2-UzXg).

I was a huge Neil Young fan until I read "Shakey". Pretty much all for himself all his life. He lost his lustre after that. Now if I can only unlearn all his songs. He always had a horrible voice.

Ocean
10-05-2009, 10:47 PM
I came up with this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok5sw3dYkFE) but I'm not sure why. An old favorite, neither romantic nor nostalgic. Just what life is about...

SkepticDoc
10-06-2009, 01:00 PM
Along the same line:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UibsmFzaAfY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zMm7nKF79s&feature=related

Whatfur
10-06-2009, 10:55 PM
A couple favorites....

Yo Yo Ma (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZn_VBgkPNY)

Pat Methaney (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvaVQZP6A_M)

SkepticDoc
10-07-2009, 07:04 AM
Nice, thank you for sharing!

Ocean
10-07-2009, 10:23 PM
A couple favorites....

Yo Yo Ma (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZn_VBgkPNY)

Pat Methaney (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvaVQZP6A_M)

Excellent!

A somewhat less well known Spanish music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHviaM6j0Xs), from my grandparents' land.

popcorn_karate
10-08-2009, 02:08 PM
I was a huge Neil Young fan until I read "Shakey". Pretty much all for himself all his life. He lost his lustre after that. Now if I can only unlearn all his songs. He always had a horrible voice.

so does that mean you have to learn to dislike anything produced by anybody that is not "exemplary"? and do you actually get to enjoy any art if you have to delve deeply into every artists personal life in order to determine what your emotional response to their work is?

sounds a bit grueling to me.

graz
10-08-2009, 02:28 PM
I was a huge Neil Young fan until I read "Shakey". Pretty much all for himself all his life.

Here is an exception to the "all for himself." (http://www.bridgeschool.org/events/concert.php)

graz
10-08-2009, 03:27 PM
He always had a horrible voice.

He could be singin' it sweetly to you. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVC2cszdTao&feature=related)

Whatfur
10-08-2009, 04:51 PM
...

You and Brendan keep wanting to refer to my age...I guess it is something you feel you have over me or something? How old are you? Regardless, I will pretty much guarantee there is nothing I would not embarrass you at.

There were a number of Young songs to pick from for you, so I called your father and he suggested this might be appropriate. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7ZkQC0riwc&feature=PlayList&p=F9821B31F36DBC20&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=33)

Don't let it bring you down.

Whatfur
10-08-2009, 05:12 PM
so does that mean you have to learn to dislike anything produced by anybody that is not "exemplary"? and do you actually get to enjoy any art if you have to delve deeply into every artists personal life in order to determine what your emotional response to their work is?

sounds a bit grueling to me.

I read Shakey because I am a fan, voice and all. Its contents disuaded me from liking the person...not necessarily the artist.

Tell graz that if the book is right and unless something has changed, he does really very little work himself in "organizing" the concert and when there (if he does decide to show) he will pretty much treat everyone around him like shit until cameras are rolling.

Ocean
10-25-2009, 08:59 PM
Sad news about Andrew Lloyd Webber having to deal with cancer, although he will most likely recover and continue his great work.

Since the topic of religion has been so inspiring, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytNoiQ8LkS8) is one of my favorites from his collection. And another (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkje4FiH9Qc&feature=related). There are many more, but I'll stay with the religious theme...

listener
06-12-2010, 03:04 PM
Wow, I'm sorry I missed this thread! (Before my time on bhtv.) Fascinating discussions about Zappa (who is one of my favorite musicians ever and who was a personal inspiration to me growing up -- the first academic paper I ever presented was on the music of Frank Zappa) and all the other topics.

Regarding Zappa's music, it is so varied that it's hard to generalize about it in terms of style, genre, etc. However, I would say that it has a strong intellectual component, a strong moral component (even in a song like "Bobby Brown"), and a strong de-emphasis on the emotional component. That's who Zappa was (or seemed to me) -- very intellectually passionate but distrustful of emotions -- and it comes out in his music.

One exception may be this song from 1968 (though it is still delivered in deadpan fashion):

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=8873479

And to add to the Latin music party (which I've come to very late), here's some Eddie Palmieri:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLiucQxbEto

And this classic from Dizzy Gillespie & Chano Pozo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s74NlRy-ibs

popcorn_karate
06-14-2010, 05:42 PM
ahhhhh zappa!

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=9457144

i like his politics possible more than his music.

listener
06-14-2010, 06:37 PM
ahhhhh zappa!

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=9457144

i like his politics possible more than his music.

Yes, the Crossfire interview is a classic.

You have seen this too?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxB-ZePpS7E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNZdMxkKcBw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMrL1SDkJRg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vQfH_uSfzY&feature=watch_response

(Frank Zappa at PMRC Senate Hearing on Rock Lyrics, Parts 1 - 4. IMO, even better than Crossfire)

rfrobison
06-14-2010, 10:41 PM
So does this mean you've forgiven him his support for Reagan in another life?

"A 'Southern Man' don't need him around anyhow..."

;)

Actually, I like Neil Young a lot.

AemJeff
06-14-2010, 10:46 PM
So does this mean you've forgiven him his support for Reagan in another life?

"A 'Southern Man' don't need him around anyhow..."

;)

Actually, I like Neil Young a lot.

Heh. Neil's never been able to decide if he'd rather be a hippie or a redneck. Doesn't matter to me a bit. I should thank 'fur for mentioning Shakey (http://www.amazon.com/Shakey-Youngs-Biography-Jimmy-McDonough/dp/0679750967/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276569893&sr=8-1). I thoroughly enjoyed it, and now know way too much about Neil. Still like him, too.

Don Zeko
06-14-2010, 11:35 PM
Man, could they have had a more idiotic and unsympathetic representative of the pro-censorship viewpoint?

...

Ok, maybe they couldn't, given how idiotic the position is.