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Bloggingheads
05-02-2008, 08:39 AM

JoeK
05-02-2008, 10:09 AM
The last time these two conversed, we were treated with preposterous psychobabble.

David Thomson
05-02-2008, 10:28 AM
I have just ordered Ellen Ladowsky's book on Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis from Amazon.com The subject fascinates me. I considered the assassinated president's wife to be one of the weirdest and most destructive first ladies in our nation's history. She was a left-wing whack job. Jackie Kennedy was greatly responsible for pushing the myth that her husband wasn't really murdered because of his ardent anti-communism. No, he supposedly was killed by those opposing racial justice. I strongly recommend James Pierson's brilliant work, Camelot and the Cultural Revolution: How the Assassination of John F. Kennedy Shattered American Liberalism.

lamoose
05-02-2008, 12:08 PM
Rob, let her talk! I think you're funny and interesting, but the relentless interrupting is driving me crazy. It reminds me of the "Interruptor" on Conan O'Brien.

Eastwest
05-02-2008, 04:20 PM
(In: "I ain't going to listen to this.) The last time these two conversed, we were treated with preposterous psychobabble.

This legend-in-her-own-mind therapist is hands-down, the worst BHTV participant in history.

You were correct to avoid even bothering to listen to this one.

Rob at least is moderately pleasant. Ladowsky, however, is amazingly consistent in oozing forth her usual air-headed blathering sh*t-on-Clintons animus-ridden goopy psycho-drivel.

Nauseating in the extreme.

They didn't even have the decency to keep it down to the psycho-therapist's 50-minute hour.

I would suggest we have these people back, but only once each year, on the Friday after Thanksgiving, perhaps discussing the family dynamics involved in family reunions on holidays.

Meanwhile, I'm praying for an extended holiday from this nonsense, an eventuality for which we would all be well justified in giving great thanks.

EW

graz
05-02-2008, 05:01 PM
[QUOTE=Eastwest;
They didn't even have the decency to keep it down to the psycho-therapist's 50-minute hour.
EW[/QUOTE]

That's a good line.

While I don't value the perspective offered by second-party analysis (to say nothing of analysis in general), I like the dynamic between these two.
I like Rob's shtick and it counters Ellen's earnestness well.
Without conceding the significance, I found Ellen's Tuzla rundown interesting.
Since I have followed most every nuance of this political season, I have to say that Hillary's handling of that whole matter still baffles me.

StillmanThomas
05-02-2008, 05:44 PM
Ellen's "analysis" of Hillary's Bosnia lie is about the most intellectually dishonest load of nonsense I've ever seen on bhtv. The idea that it wasn't intentional, that Hillary didn't work her butt off to construct that totally false narrative, is ludicrous on the face of it. Catching any of these candidates in an unscripted moment is almost impossible. And if she did deliberately construct that "bunker mentality" story, what do you you think it portends for a Hillary presidency? How many of the 60 - 70 million Iranians will Hillary incinerate when she annihilates them, as she promised this week?

But neither "head" ever touched on her most fatuous line: "If this was the Republican Party, I would already have won." That's exactly how Hillary will campaign in the fall (if she gets the chance). "I'm tougher than Bush, tougher than McCain; I'm the toughest one of all." That's what the Clintons do; they talk like Democrats and govern like Republicans.

piscivorous
05-02-2008, 05:59 PM
... That's what the Clintons do; they talk like Democrats and govern like Republicans. That ought to tell you all you need to know about just how popular the left agenda is. I mean America has not elected a leftest, as President since President Carter, and he was so popular that he lost his chance at a second term election 44 states to 6.

uncle ebeneezer
05-02-2008, 06:35 PM
Pisc, Though the Pres election trends have been decidedly right-leaning in recent years how would you explain this

http://mediamatters.org/progmaj/report

And before you toss it out because of Media Matters-bias, there are several other studies suggesting the same, out there.

Just curious as to whether you think A.) Americans don't favor liberal policies, B.) Americans favor liberal policies, but just don't vote for liberal Presidents, C.) Americans favor Conservative policies (except in landslides like the 2006 congressional elections).

My take would be that Americans generally favor centrists from either side and not extremists.

look
05-02-2008, 06:46 PM
This legend-in-her-own-mind therapist is hands-down, the worst BHTV participant in history.

Ladowsky, however, is amazingly consistent in oozing forth her usual air-headed blathering sh*t-on-Clintons animus-ridden goopy psycho-drivel.


I disagree. Like Ladowski, I thought the most fascinating and under-reported aspect of the Philly debate was Hillary's odd statement. As Conn Carroll said, "She talked for 5 minutes, and I still don't know what the hell she said."

I just don't see how it could have been a conscious lie, as she'd know there'd be footage available, and I've long thought that it was a kind of mental lapse along the lines of creating a false memory, probably due to fatigue. But Ladowsky's take is fascinating to consider.

I think Ladowsky and Long should be on once a month.

look
05-02-2008, 06:53 PM
http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/10724?in=00:10:19&out=10:22

piscivorous
05-02-2008, 07:09 PM
Pisc, Though the Pres election trends have been decidedly right-leaning in recent years how would you explain this

http://mediamatters.org/progmaj/report

And before you toss it out because of Media Matters-bias, there are several other studies suggesting the same, out there.

Just curious as to whether you think A.) Americans don't favor liberal policies, B.) Americans favor liberal policies, but just don't vote for liberal Presidents, C.) Americans favor Conservative policies (except in landslides like the 2006 congressional elections).

My take would be that Americans generally favor centrists from either side and not extremists. I would dispute the landslide nature of the 2006 election, how much different in actual numbers from other off year second term elections historically, but I wold agree with you that Americans in general run towards the centrists instead of tho polar extremes.

ndk
05-02-2008, 09:10 PM
Right. God, the guy needs a Valium or something.

look
05-02-2008, 09:15 PM
Right. God, the guy needs a Valium or something.
Or to switch to decaf after the second cup. He's a funny guy, but to interrupt her train of thought just to get in one-liners is trying too hard.

ginger baker
05-02-2008, 09:33 PM
this is such trash!!!!! are they kidding or not? she' admits never having met Wright yet she continues to sell political analysis as psycho analysis mumbo-jumbo? why SHOULD Wright be "loyal" to Obama? is she begging something here???

Retortus
05-02-2008, 09:42 PM
Rob and Ellen do a great job trying to try to make sense of the many faces of Hillary. Ellen's take on Hillary's "Bosnia lie/fantasy/dream or whatever" is the most cogent I have heard to date. The two of them work extremely well together trying to get beyond the visceral responses many of us have to Hillary's "do or say whatever it takes" campaign rhetoric and , on the other side, there is the angry and even aggressive defenses we see coming from the Clintonites. The two of them once again have a fascinating diavlog coming from divergent sides to examine the whole crazy cast of characters in this political world . Which is worse - a deliberate lie or a fantasy she actually believed? Hmmm..... Good job, guys.

bjkeefe
05-02-2008, 10:29 PM
EW:

I think you're taking this pair too seriously. I find that listening to them in the spirit of banter and cocktail-party psychology makes for real pleasure. I wouldn't want dessert for every meal, but I like it far more often than once a year.

Plus, if you think about it, we've had almost no one on who's bashed Hillary. After what feels like a hundred straight Obama-haters and -skeptics, it makes for a nice change. This part, I get, is no selling point to you. But maybe my first pitch will work.

bjkeefe
05-02-2008, 10:35 PM
I'd add to this that Americans favor many left-leaning policies, but the Democrats have done a terrible job condensing their plans into memorable slogans and/or have done a terrible job picking candidates who can pitch them.

Related: the Dem candidates have recently done their level best to sound like GOP-lite. I think this has left the base uninspired and therefore reluctant to turn out, and has made many centrists think, "Well, if that's all they have to offer, I might as well go with the real thing." To the right's credit, they have always done a better job of differentiating themselves, even when they mood of the country was against them -- a more disciplined long view, in other words.

Also, the GOP is just flat-out better at staying organized and on-message, and at attacking the Dem candidates.

bjkeefe
05-02-2008, 10:38 PM
look:

What's to psychoanalyze? Olberman is an articulate and emotional spokesman of the political point of view that Ellen holds. Might as well psychoanalyze everyone who listens to, say, Rush Limbaugh. There's nothing abnormal about being in a choir and liking to listen to the preacher.

Wonderment
05-02-2008, 11:27 PM
I think you're taking this pair too seriously. I find that listening to them in the spirit of banter and cocktail-party psychology makes for real pleasure.

I agree. Lots of fun.

There is a good case to be made that Ellen suffers from Acute Obamamania, and the pathologizing of Clinton and Rev. Wright just reflects her bias. But even so, it's entertaining.

rgajria
05-03-2008, 12:04 AM
Ellen Ladowsky is really pretty. DT, EW, This conversation sounds a lot less grating and over the top if you get really stoned :)

rgajria
05-03-2008, 12:17 AM
At 53:11 check out Rob's dog wandering across the room.

Happy Hominid
05-03-2008, 02:05 AM
I thought she could have done better with the analysis of Hillary's "lie". I fully agree with that fact that she was telling the truth as she remembers it, but there's a term for that - false memory syndrome.

It strikes me as a classic example of something we are probably all prone to. It's hard to believe because we will all say "not ME. All of my memories are exactly what happened". Except if we are honest with ourselves we will remember one or two times that someone (perhaps a parent) corrected us on something we thought we remembered perfectly. Because it was someone we trusted, or because the evidence was overwhelming, we ended up accepting it.

And for most of us who are not political candidates, don't have our lives scrutinized, don't have to bring up past memories to tell to thousands of people and cameras, it is easy enough for some or all of our false memories to remain safely tucked within our own private minds. Some of our false memories could be about things that are so irrelevant that we would be unlikely to even bring them up verbally and, even then, are probably bringing it up to someone who wouldn't know that we are wrong.

The most troubling thing about Hillary on this one is that she is running for President of the United States and we don't know if she has these memories more than the average person. There must be some sort of a "false memory continuum" and since she has been caught in one and no one else has - that I can point to anyway - one wonders if this is a sign that she is closer to the psychopathy end of the continuum.

I would guess it's nothing to worry about from that point, but on a political view, she could be in a much more precarious position. I think if it were widely understood that this was a case of false memory, the media (and thus the voter) would have, perhaps undeservedly, grave concerns. Much more than simply lying. I think she understands this. "Misspoke" is a MUCH better way for her to frame the Bosnia episode.

bjkeefe
05-03-2008, 02:10 AM
Happy Hominid:

I don't at all agree with this:

"Misspoke" is a MUCH better way for her to frame the Bosnia episode.

The fact is, she has told this story over and over again. It was, for a long time, a part of her stump speech, as Veracifier (http://bjkeefe.blogspot.com/2008/03/how-many-misspokes-before-youre-wheelie.html) has documented.

Happy Hominid
05-03-2008, 02:12 AM
Then again, to Ellen's credit, she talks right through his one liners quite a bit. I loved the frustrated looks he would get when she drowned out something he thought was witty!

Happy Hominid
05-03-2008, 02:17 AM
I still think it's better to say misspoke (even if it was over and over) than to admit to a psychological problem with remembering the event correctly, don't you?

bjkeefe
05-03-2008, 02:32 AM
I still think it's better to say misspoke (even if it was over and over) than to admit to a psychological problem with remembering the event correctly, don't you?

If we're talking how best to spin an awkward moment, no doubt about it. But I thought you were considering the lie from a view above, not as one working for.

Happy Hominid
05-03-2008, 02:34 AM
That Ellen could have made regarding the press and Hillary is that in no way have the press been as unfair to Hillary as she has moaned about. It's not that the press have given her a gigantic pass (that would be McCain). It's that she has whined about being beaten up by them to the point that they have backed off normal tough coverage of a candidate.

CrowsMakeTools
05-03-2008, 03:43 AM
[QUOTE=Bokonon;75923]Ellen's "analysis" of Hillary's Bosnia lie is about the most intellectually dishonest load of nonsense I've ever seen on bhtv. The idea that it wasn't intentional, that Hillary didn't work her butt off to construct that totally false narrative, is ludicrous on the face of it. QUOTE]

Actually, I think that Ellen's interpretation of Hillary's "false memory" is far more plausible than the suggestion that this was an artful and deliberate fabrication. Our memories are constrained more by the requirements of the personal narrative we are motivated to construct rather than factual detail. Consider, as another case in point, Ronald Reagan's famous pseudomemory of having gone to Europe to film the Buchenwald death camp. He told this story, in moving and vivid detail, on at least two separate occasions, to Itzak Shamir (the Israeli Prime Minister at the time) and also to Simon Wiesenthal. Reagan, of course, never left North America during his military service, and most likely constructed this story out of distorted fragments of his own recollections of viewing films of the death camps while he was still in Hollywood. Reagan was famous for occasionally confusing historical memory with episodes from the movies, and these incidents occurred many years before his Alzheimer's diagnosis. The deep irony in Reagan's Holocaust pseudomemory, of course, is that he invented it in the service of his wish to convey his respect for the importance of never forgetting the Holocaust. In Reagan's case the importance of "preserving the memory" of the Holocaust outweighed the importance of fidelity to historical autobiographical detail of his role in documenting the story.

There has always been a strong motivation on the part of politicians to construct personal narratives that are more in accord with their ambitions and present needs than with historical facts. One of the earliest and most remarkably resonant examples in Presidential electoral politics was William Henry Harrison's "log cabin and hard cider" Presidential campaign in 1840, in which Harrison and his handlers recast his personal biography from his actual life as a Southern aristocrat to that of a frontier Indian fighter and Man of the People. Consider, as another more contemporary case in point, Hillary's reconstruction of her personal biography and her "memories" of the values she internalized helping on the factory floor of her father's printing plant business.

One of the finest examples of the reconstruction of memory of traumatic events in the service of politically self-serving narrative comes from John Ford's classic 1962 film, the Man Who Shot Liberty Valence, in which Ransom Stoddard's (Jimmy Stewart's character) entire political career is constructed out of a fabrication of his role in killing Liberty Valence (Lee Marvin), the archetype of precivilized lawlessness:

Ransom Stoddard:You're not going to use the story, Mr. Scott?
Maxwell Scott: No, sir. This is the west, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056217/quotes

There is, of course, a critical difference between Ransom Stoddard, the Jimmy Stewart character, and Senator Clinton. Jimmy Stewart portrays a character haunted by guilt. Mrs. Clinton's affect, in contrast, is imbued with anger and annoyance, but no contrition. This is, as Dr. Ladowsky astutely observes, pathognomonic of a narcissistic character organization. And for me, that's kind of disturbing.

edbarbar
05-03-2008, 03:50 AM
The shrink blinks a lot, especially when she says how when lying one often blinks a lot.

bjkeefe
05-03-2008, 03:51 AM
There has always been a strong motivation on the part of politicians to construct personal narratives that are more in accord with their ambitions and present needs than with historical facts.

I nominate this statement for a Nutshell Award.

And: Excellent post overall, CMT.

Wonderment
05-03-2008, 04:55 AM
To a lot of politicians truth is whatever you can get away with saying.

Nixon called the defensive side of this coin plausible deniability.

For a normal person what Hillary did is called a lie (as Ellen pointed out in examining Hillary's after-the-fact explanation), but to the cynical politician it is merely a case of misspeaking. The mistake is making an assertion that can be refuted.

Lying is such a standard practice for politicians like Clinton that it's really ridiculous to consider any aspect of political speech to be a mendacious. A "real" lie to Hillary is probably only something that can occur in an interpersonal, intimate relationship.

When Bill Clinton said he never inhaled or "I never slept with that woman -- Monica Lewinsky," he didn't lie. He just "misspoke," i.e., he said something that could be ultimately refuted.

Hillary thought "dangerous place, war zone, flying in" could just blend nicely with "sniper fire," and didn't thoroughly think through the investigation that would ensue. Thus, the explanation: "I fucked up. I didn't lie. I was just tired," makes perfect sense. Clintonspeak cannot be held to the standards of truth-telling that prevail in the world of everyday discourse.

bjkeefe
05-03-2008, 05:55 AM
Wonderment:

Nixon called the defensive side of this coin plausible deniability.

And let us never forget, from the same administration: "That statement is no longer operative."

I think they tried this one during the current administration, but the C-in-C's mangled attempts to quote it provoked only helpless giggling. And that was among his senior aides.

We now pause for a response from the Fightin' 28% (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/01/bush.poll/?iref=mpstoryview).

breadcrust
05-03-2008, 08:33 AM
S'up Rob,

A big reason we white youths are going to vote for Obama is because we identify with him. It's not just that Clinton is a weird, medium-charisma war-monger, but that she sounds like she swallowed the rust-belt.

Among his other virtues, Obama speaks a mixture of ebonics and anglonics that anyone raised on Yo! MTV Raps and Cheers finds completely normal. "White guilt" has less meaning to us than to our white elders, so choosing Obama over Clinton or the angry grampa just seems obvious.

diogenes
05-03-2008, 12:33 PM
Good job, Ellen & Rob. This has the makings of an extremely interesting conversation, plus Ellen is so cute. I agree with Retortus that by far the strangest, most unsettling incident of the campaign was Hillary's hallucinating her experience in Bosnia. Check out The Huffington Post -- Ellen wrote a fascinating piece on just this subject.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ellen-ladowsky/hillarys-psychic-reality_b_99896.html

Eastwest
05-03-2008, 12:53 PM
At 53:11 check out Rob's dog wandering across the room.

Wandering Dog = The only interesting occurrence in the whole DV.

That this Obama homophily-zone (OHZ), at this late date, has only this "invented memory" Bosnia phenom to enthuse about amidst the Obama train wreck is laughable and pathetic.

Turning this old Tusla turd over and over again with such fascination is itself diagnostic of the OHZ's own divorce from reality, this when Obama, still stuck with his Rev. Wright ball-and-chain has just proven beyond a doubt that he's a general election loser.

Meanwhile, except in funny-farms like this BHTV OHZ, Obama-Buyers'-Remorse Syndrome is now spreading like the plague.

EW

Happy Hominid
05-03-2008, 12:57 PM
I'd heard about this, but thanks for the link. I remember (and many here probably share the experience) arguing with fairly intelligent friends years ago that Bush was probably the worst President we've ever had. And polls at that time confirmed the position of those exasperating amigos. So it's nice to see that rationality, at times, can be contagious if slow.

Oh, and up about 3 comments - My very last line of the post was simply about what is the best way for Hillary to play this, given that she now knows that she had a false memory moment. She finds the notion of yet another untruth being more palatable than what voters would think of as a scary illness.

look
05-03-2008, 01:50 PM
That this Obama homophily-zone (OHZ), at this late date, has only this "invented memory" Bosnia phenom to enthuse about amidst the Obama train wreck is laughable and pathetic.

What's your take on the Tuzla story?

look
05-03-2008, 01:54 PM
Good job, Ellen & Rob. This has the makings of an extremely interesting conversation, plus Ellen is so cute. I agree with Retortus that by far the strangest, most unsettling incident of the campaign was Hillary's hallucinating her experience in Bosnia. Check out The Huffington Post -- Ellen wrote a fascinating piece on just this subject.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ellen-ladowsky/hillarys-psychic-reality_b_99896.htmlIt's all very interesting to speculate about Hillary's Tuzla story, but I think it would be only fair if next time Dr. Ladowsky came on she'd do some analysis of Barack, especially with regard to his choosing to consciously adopt a black persona, and the possible attendant inner conflicts this could engender.

johnatthebar
05-03-2008, 02:45 PM
Rob says the bully pulpit doesn't exist. Interesting idea! Obviously wrong! If Bush, Cheney and Iraq have taught us anything, it's the power of the pulpit.

Seriously, public opinion went from 0 to 95 miles per hour on Iraq essentially at the behest of two to five dudes. Bush himself refers retroactively to late 2002 and early 2003 as "the march to war." After all that, arguing that presidents don't have bully-pulpit power is ... crazy.

Eastwest
05-03-2008, 03:01 PM
What's your take on the Tuzla story?

Answer: Magical thinking on the same order as Obama's ego mania. Mix jet-lag, lack of sleep, endless months of continuous campaigning, nearly two decades of fighting off attacks from political opponents, a fairly understandable seige mentality--It probably becomes hard at times to distinguish the waking nightmare from the sleeping one. Only non-reflective folks are unfamiliar with how "invented memories" are in fact a very normal occurrence in nearly everyone's life.

For folks to try based on this to indict her for intrinsic moral failings and duplicity are just smoking too much of the wrong weed.

Y'all have fun. Raise a glass to Obama as you watch the McCain inauguration 9 months from now. We owe it all to Barack and his pied-piper supporters.

EW

look
05-03-2008, 03:32 PM
Answer: Magical thinking on the same order as Obama's ego mania. Mix jet-lag, lack of sleep, endless months of continuous campaigning, nearly two decades of fighting off attacks from political opponents, a fairly understandable seige mentality--It probably becomes hard at times to distinguish the waking nightmare from the sleeping one. Only non-reflective folks are unfamiliar with how "invented memories" are in fact a very normal occurrence in nearly everyone's life.
(my bold) Which is essentially what Ladowsky was saying. As a person very sympathetic to Hillary, I have to wonder to what extent a siege mentality would affect her presidency.

Eastwest
05-03-2008, 04:36 PM
As a person very sympathetic to Hillary, I have to wonder to what extent a siege mentality would affect her presidency.

I don't think much. I base my judgments on such concerns on the other 95% of the time when, not exhibiting these not-so-uncommon abberrational patterns, she's really very impressive in her political savvy, analysis, and knowing what to say to whom and when, and is also, very importantly, displaying decently marvelous debating skills where she's even able to dance toe-to-toe with snakes like O'Reilly (that's why Obama's wetting his pants and running from a Lincoln-Douglas match-up).

She's got way more balls than Obama, stellar ability to think and verbally spar on her feet, and infinitely deeper understanding of the entire political cosmos.

So, no, I really can't imagine she'll go out-and-out delusional and start carpet-nuking Iran or something. She just threw that "obliterate" bit out there to give the mullahs and McCain something to freak about, as in "Oh, gawd, this lady is not going to be so EZ to push around, is she?!"

EW

look
05-03-2008, 05:07 PM
(that's why Obama's wetting his pants and running from a Lincoln-Douglas match-up)You think giving the race speech showed poor judgement, and so would debating her.

She's got way more balls than ObamaWhat are you basing this on? He's run a more cerebral campaign, as far as 'taking the high road,' which is one of the things (however calculated) that's given him the lead, but that doesn't equate to having less balls.

So, no, I really can't imagine she'll go out-and-out delusional and start carpet-nuking Iran or something.I wasn't thinking along those lines, but that she'd adopt high-handed attitude toward the press, Dems who dissed her, and Republicans. Yes, I know, she may have learned her lesson. She just threw that "obliterate" bit out there to give the mullahs and McCain something to freak about, as in "Oh, gawd, this lady is not going to be so EZ to push around, is she?!"More like to lure any Republicans she possibly could away from McCain. McCain knows she's not going to be easy to push around.

themightypuck
05-03-2008, 05:42 PM
Perhaps BHTV can put out a sexy calendar--like tool companies do for mechanics? To start the ball rolling I nominate Mickey Kaus. I assumed Mickey's nickname "Mickey Six Pack" referred to his love for the working man until I saw him strutting along Venice Beach. That man has some wicked abs. To make the offer irresistible we could make him Mooster October.

bkjazfan
05-03-2008, 08:57 PM
I enjoyed the daivlog wtih Ellen and Rob. It was fun and on the lite side.

John

bjkeefe
05-03-2008, 09:22 PM
Happy Hominid:

Oh, and up about 3 comments - My very last line of the post was simply about what is the best way for Hillary to play this ...

oic. Thanks for the clarification.

soros
05-05-2008, 07:53 AM
Rob, please let the people you're interviewing speak and finish what they want to say. This was a terrible interview.

Retortus
05-06-2008, 02:55 PM
We don't need the first woman president with make-believe balls. We need the first president in 8 years with brains and more than a third grade ability to communicate. And, as Ellen very clearly points out, unlike Ms. Hillary, one who speaks the truth and is reality-based.

YouppiMontreal
05-07-2008, 09:48 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mwTCzjE-3TM

Killer!!!