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Bloggingheads
04-21-2008, 08:30 PM

David Thomson
04-21-2008, 10:14 PM
Thank God that our military leaders tend to be Republicans. Today's Democrats are self-hating Americans who believe that their own country is the number one cause of evil in the world. Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harry Truman, Hubert Humphrey, and John F. Kennedy have long been dead. They have been replaced by George McGovern and "Barry" Obama. The present generation perceives the United States as a racist and imperialist country. We are the ones supposedly responsible for turning Osama bin Ladin and his allies into terrorists. They are merely victims. Who are we to judge them according to discredited Western values?

bjkeefe
04-21-2008, 10:20 PM
Another excellent diavlog. As with the one between Heather Hurlbert and Eric Posner, it is quite instructive to hear people debate something after accepting some realistic givens. In particular, I want to salute Eli for adopting a stance considerably more nuanced than "The Surge is working!"

I'm interested that he did not say who he supports from president. One would think it's McCain, but he did dodge the question.

David Thomson
04-21-2008, 10:38 PM
Please listen closely to the very beginning of this 12.13 minute segment. Phil Carter subtly suggest that a newly elected president will adjust their national security policies to conform to the realities of the moment. My interpretation of his remarks is that he knows that both Hillary Clinton and "Barry" Obama are lying to the Democratic Party base to get their support. I am also more than a bit irritated by Carter's inclusion of John McCain. The latter gentleman has substantially made his view clear. It is only the Democrats who are mealy mouthing on these most important issues.

David Thomson
04-21-2008, 10:49 PM
Austan Goolsbee told our Canadian allies not to pay too much pay attention to "Barry" Obama's fibs concerning NAFTA. He was, after all, merely lying to to the poorly educated blue collars. Yup, it's fair to also suggest that Phil Carter is doing substantially the same thing on behalf of Obama's foreign policy statements.

Jyminee
04-21-2008, 10:56 PM
To "Davey" Thomson:

In case you weren't paying attention, Mr. Carter stated that he served in Iraq for 9 months. He's also advising Obama. Is he a "self-hating American"?

threep
04-22-2008, 12:14 AM
Guys, just sit back and try to enjoy this David Thomson thing.

bjkeefe
04-22-2008, 12:47 AM
Guys, just sit back and try to enjoy this David Thomson thing.

As Bill Clinton never said, it all depends upon what your definition of enjoy is.

Tao Jones
04-22-2008, 01:05 AM
Re: Calling Obama "Barry"... Isn't this is kind of like calling Kunta Kinte "Toby"?? Have a lot of anti-Obama people been doing this?

bjkeefe
04-22-2008, 02:07 AM
Re: Calling Obama "Barry"... Isn't this is kind of like calling Kunta Kinte "Toby"?? Have a lot of anti-Obama people been doing this?

My impression is that the general tendency died down some time ago, and now only the truly warped cling to this trope.

And yes, I mean: cling.

breadcrust
04-22-2008, 08:08 AM
Tao,

"Barry" was the name he went by for years and is still used (only slightly sarcastically) by wonkette -- one of his biggest cheerleaders. D. Thomson is just cranky because it appears "Barack" will be our next president.

JIM3CH
04-22-2008, 09:15 AM
Eli Lake disparages the IAEA during this diavlog. I would link to it, but I donít want to take the effort. It was bunk anyway. He said that there was no reason to believe the IAEA that Iraq did not have a nuclear program because they had got things wrong during the first Iraq war, and in Iran, and DPRK. He is right about the first Iraq war. Weaknesses at IAEA were revealed. That was why the so called ďAdditional ProtocolĒ (i.e., increased access and more intrusive inspections) was developed and adopted by IAEA member states. Many additional strengthening measures were also implemented at IAEA.

Eli Lake is incorrect when he states that IAEA missed both Iranís previous program and the DPRKís program. IAEA deserves the lion's share of the credit for exposing the problems in both of those two states. IAEA was spot on with regard to Iraq II. They were virtually certain that the previously dismantled nuclear program had not been reinitiated. They were on the verge of issuing a final report attesting to that fact when the invasion was started. I am certain that Eli Lake knows this to be true and find it distressing that he chooses to spread misinformation as cheap cover for his own stupid support for the invasion.

Bloggin' Noggin
04-22-2008, 12:11 PM
Really enjoyed this one. It was, by far, the least contentious debate Eli has been involved in. Far less disagreement than I'd have expected ahead of time -- yet that didn't diminish its interest.
I hope we have Phillip Carter back here again: Cute, great smile -- and very interesting analysis besides!
[Bad BN! Stop objectifying the diavloggers!]
Nice to know he's advising Obama -- I hope President Obama gives him a good position.

Joel_Cairo
04-22-2008, 12:26 PM
My impression is that the general tendency died down some time ago, and now only the truly warped cling to this trope.

And yes, I mean: cling.

I think it's really hilarious, this whole putting-scare-quotes-around-someones-nickname. It's about the weakest smear I've ever heard; what's it even supposed to suggest? The whole thing calls less attention to Obama's weakpoints than it does to how eagerly the slanderer will embarass himself with these pathetic, convoluted attempts to discredit Barry.

harkin
04-22-2008, 12:38 PM
"we'd pull back and Al Qaeda would come in and slaughter those people who'd worked with us........What this enabled us to do was to break that pattern, and to actually protect the people who had worked with us and sustain the success over time"

"what the surge enabled us to do for the first time was actually sustain these gains over time......that has been the real lesson here".

The troop withdrawl in 2009 should be interesting.

TwinSwords
04-22-2008, 02:42 PM
I think it's really hilarious, this whole putting-scare-quotes-around-someones-nickname. It's about the weakest smear I've ever heard; what's it even supposed to suggest? The whole thing calls less attention to Obama's weakpoints than it does to how eagerly the slanderer will embarass himself with these pathetic, convoluted attempts to discredit Barry.

Right. The use of scare quotes around the name Barack no longer uses tells us far more about the person deploying it as an insult that it does about Barack Obama himself. That this person doesn't realize this is also quite telling. Like you said, what exactly does he think he's proving by calling him "Barry"?

If you were a juvenile, and there was some other kid you really didn't like, you might call him names to aggravate him -- and for no other reason.

But Obama doesn't read these threads. No grand point is made by calling him "Barry." I guess the poster's only point is to aggravate Obama supporters.

It's pretty weak stuff.

TwinSwords
04-22-2008, 02:49 PM
It was, by far, the least contentious debate Eli has been involved in.
Agreed. I'm gaining a lot of respect for Eli. I think he might have made a conscious decision to not insult and bait half of America in each of his diavlogs. A refreshing change and hopefully done in the spirit of reducing "tribalistic" tendencies.

Then again, maybe Eli just doesn't feel any contempt for this particular interlocutor, since Carter has actually served in Iraq and has impeccable credentials.

bjkeefe
04-22-2008, 02:55 PM
Twin:

Then again, maybe Eli just doesn't feel any contempt for this particular interlocutor, since Carter has actually served in Iraq and has impeccable credentials.

That thought occurred to me, too. Eli did seem to show a lot of deference because of Phillip's service. That's not an entirely unreasonable attitude to take, of course, but it was interesting how pronounced it appeared.

The upside is that it made Eli stay focused, which made a lot of what he had to say well worth listening to, compared to other occasions where he has sometimes had a tendency to bluster or to be dismissive instead of engaging the other diavlogger's ideas.

TwinSwords
04-22-2008, 02:58 PM
The upside is that it made Eli stay focused, which made a lot of what he had to say well worth listening to, compared to other occasions where he has sometimes had a tendency to bluster or to be dismissive instead of engaging the other diavlogger's ideas.

Good pont: Whatever the cause, the result was good.

uncle ebeneezer
04-22-2008, 05:48 PM
I wouldn't get too enthused about Eli's moderate behaviour. I can't remember the order, but I remember when Eli did a relatively moderate, amiable diavlog and I thought he was turning a corner, and then a couple Vlog's later he was back to talking points and ranting about the success of the surge. Like Conn Carroll and Pinkerton, he always has that ability to go back to the borders of wingnuttery when you least excpect it.

Still, he's "likeable enough".

Joel_Cairo
04-22-2008, 06:06 PM
The upside is that it made Eli stay focused, which made a lot of what he had to say well worth listening to, compared to other occasions where he has sometimes had a tendency to bluster or to be dismissive instead of engaging the other diavlogger's ideas.

I agree Lake was great in this. This minute or so right here (http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/10413?in=00:51:49&out=52:43) shows exactly why I don't dismiss Eli - Dave Thomson-ish as he sometimes is - out of hand the way many of us lefties do. I really believe he's got good intentions, is grappling with the situation in good faith, and (to borrow Steve Clemon's favorite term of praise) an ability to think strategically. I know that Eli and I share, at the very least, a certain goal, even if I often find his preferred means really off-the-mark.

Incidentally, does anybody know of any NGOs that are doing the kind of thing Eli talks about in my dingalink above?

piscivorous
04-22-2008, 06:25 PM
Perhaps it is who he is doing the diavlogs with that is actually the difference. Team him up with a typical left wing hack and you get his the strident and partisan and strident Eli Lake. Team him up with someone reasonable and knowledge and yo get an informative conversation. Amazing how that works.

uncle ebeneezer
04-22-2008, 07:22 PM
I can't remember the particular diavlog (Brendan probably could as I remember him commenting fiercly on it) but just looking at the list of people paired with Eli for the last year I see: Spencer Ackerman, Heather Hurlburt, Steve Clemons, Rosa Brooks and Bob Wright (and a couple others). I would hardly call anyone on that list a "hack" regardless of their political attitudes.

Perhaps you're thinking of the one he did with David Frum.

piscivorous
04-22-2008, 07:56 PM
well I'm sure that depends on ones personal definition of hack. some think it is a cab driver and a few of the names you mention might qualify for that particular definitiion.

look
04-22-2008, 08:50 PM
Twin:



That thought occurred to me, too. Eli did seem to show a lot of deference because of Phillip's service. That's not an entirely unreasonable attitude to take, of course, but it was interesting how pronounced it appeared.

The upside is that it made Eli stay focused, which made a lot of what he had to say well worth listening to, compared to other occasions where he has sometimes had a tendency to bluster or to be dismissive instead of engaging the other diavlogger's ideas.
Well, it helped that Phillip gently schooled him more than twice, I believe, and Eli had the sense to defer to his superior knowledge.

look
04-22-2008, 09:06 PM
http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/10413?in=00:30:42&out=31:08

This Eli on caffeine...I know the symptoms from personal experience. Love ya, Eli.

bjkeefe
04-22-2008, 10:16 PM
Well, it helped that Phillip gently schooled him more than twice, I believe, and Eli had the sense to defer to his superior knowledge.

You're absolutely right, look. That was an incredibly insightful observation. Probably the smartest post that's ever been put up on this board, if not the entire World Wide Web.

* (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?p=74417#post74417)

johnmarzan
04-23-2008, 07:55 AM
phil is wrong to say that the US has "ceded the field of battle" in the war of ideas. he is wrong to say that the US has "not poured billions" to help build madrassas (schools) or into public relations with muslims overseas.

he's mentioned the Philippines a few times. he's mentioned jemaah islamiya. well, for phil's information, the US is helping not only to build schools aka madrassas in the Muslim dominated parts of war-torn mindanao (once labeled the next afghanistan), the american military stationed there (with the help of USAID) are also doing it's own version of "nation building" in that troublespot area. (the mastermind of the first WTC bombing, ramzi yousef, used the philippines as his base of operations in the 90s).

http://philippines.usaid.gov/mindanao_eduk.php

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/regions/view_article.php?article_id=131840

muslim mindanao has a better chance of succeeding than iraq because it has no mutual borders with countries like iran, syria and saudi arabia.

and the reason why phil is not aware that such US programs exist is because there's little or no muslim/christian violence in that area since 2001. which means it's all done under the radar without much publicity.

as for jemaah islamiya, it's on the run. and the abu sayyafs are almost gone.

and eli is wrong to say that the US should avoid using american taxpayer money to help poor muslim countries and areas because "the US has no credibility" anyway. just plain wrong.

johnmarzan
04-23-2008, 07:59 AM
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/B519987.htm

Bush aide visits Philippine rebel stronghold
25 Jan 2007 11:13:48 GMT
Source: Reuters
Alert Me | Printable view | Email this article | RSS XML [-] Text [+]

By Manny Mogato

MAIMBUNG, Philippines, Jan 25 (Reuters) - One of President George W. Bush's closest aides visited a Philippine rebel stronghold on Thursday and lauded U.S. efforts in countering Islamic militants there.

Karen Hughes, the State Department's undersecretary for public diplomacy and public affairs, told reporters on the island of Jolo that U.S. operations in the southern Philippines should be a model for other parts of the world.

"I think it's a wonderful example of the way we should be conducting our operations around the world as we seek to help people have a better life and we also seek together to track down the terrorists who tried to disrupt that peaceful development," she said.

U.S. special forces are providing intelligence and training to Philippine troops combating the Abu Sayyaf, the country's deadliest Islamic militant group. They are also helping build roads and schools on Jolo, a stronghold of the Abu Sayyaf.

Most of the Philippines' 87 million people are Catholic but a significant Muslim minority lives mostly in the impoverished south of the country. Jolo is almost entirely Muslim.

In recent weeks, Philippine troops have announced the killing of Abu Sayyaf's chieftain and of its main planner. They have said the group has been encircled and will soon be vanquished.

There was strong security but no sign of the fighting when Hughes was mobbed by hundreds of Muslim schoolchildren waving Philippine and U.S. paper flags after she stepped out of a military helicopter in the port town of Maimbung.

"Well, it's very heart-warming to see the warm smiles," she said, when asked whether her reception differed from that in other Muslim societies.

U.S. Ambassador Kristie Kenny inaugurated a three-room school building that was built by U.S. soldiers where students learn how to surf the Internet using 10 computers provided by the U.S. Agency for International Development.

She also opened a new road linking the southern port of Maimbung with the main town on the island, also called Jolo, cutting travel time from two hours to about 30 minutes.

Hughes said her role was not to boost Washington's image in Muslim communities but to promote "friendship, partnership and respect".

"I don't see it as image," she said. "I see it as the diplomacy of deeds, the things we are doing in concrete ways that help people have better lives.

"I view my job in public diplomacy as waging peace, and I used the word waging because we have to very intentional about creating the conditions for peace just as we have to be very intentional about tracking down the terrorists who threaten peace."

Inovajon
04-23-2008, 05:15 PM
Eli Lake is one of the most blatant propagandists I've ever seen.

Of course it is almost impossible not to see Eli Lake these days. He is blanketing media outlets. I watched him last week on DemocracyNow.org. Eli must have drawn the short stick. It seems Bill Kristol appointed Eli an Official Neoconservative Apologist Emissary to the American left.

Maybe if he does a good job he'll get Aaron Klein's job, Worldnetdaily's "Jerusalem Bureau Chief" (whatever that means). I listened to Mr. Klein on Michael Reagan's radio show yesterday. I guess Klein actually knows Netanyahu himself. Unlike Mr. Lake, he at least gets to approach the microphone with honest right wing media whining and pandering. When Klein is not doing Israel National Radio he supplicates himself before right wing media pundits with a welcomed message, "Please don't abandon Israel!!! Jimmy Carter is the devil!!! Iran is going to bomb Israel off the map!!!! Jimmy Carter is the devil!!! Hamas terrorists are killing us and interfering with our siege!!!! Jimmy Carter is the devil!!! Please don't abandon Israel!!!"

Unfortunately for Mr. Lake, his job is much harder. He has to pretend to cover one of the biggest stories of the new century, that the mainstream American media has been turning tricks for Pentagon pimps. In all fairness to the Pentagon though, in today's media/government environment it is hard to tell the pimps from the ho's. The neocons made Cheney and the Pentagon their beeeooootch a long time ago.

Like the mainstream media, bloggingheads.tv has not really touched on David Barstow's "Behind TV Analysts, Pentagonís Hidden Hand" in last Sunday's NYTIMES. I am beginning to wonder if the bloggingheads all got their start at the Voice of America or the Jerusalem Post...

pod2
04-23-2008, 11:08 PM
Look, I can't just sit by and listen to this mindless rehash of the neocon talking points about pre-invasion weapons inspectors. At some point, someone in the diavlog needs to mention the aggressive insistence of Scott Ritter and, to a less vocal extent, Rolf Ekeus, that Saddam's chemical/biological stockpiles were, if they did exist, essentially worthless, and that capability for producing new weapons was effectively nil. The attempts, and eventual success of the CIA to infiltrate UNSCOM and use it for espionage in service of the Clinton stated policy of regime change (not disarmament or stability, regime change) is too well documented to dispute. Please, if you dispute it, read the reports put out by the AUstralian state dept, Scott Ritter (lifelong Republican, Marine, voted for Bush I), Ekeus, etc. It was widely acknowledged by Ritter, who led the inspections team from 91-98, that nearly 100 percent of the stockpiles had been destroyed by the intrusive inspections, and that any remaining pretenses at using UNSCOM were strictly political and excuses for espionage against the admittedly Stalinist Saddam regime. Any attempts to rebuild the weapons production program would have been detected by the Blix inspections of 02 and 03. ANy "stockpiles" that Eli refers to were complete jokes. These weapons do not sit in barrels for a decade and retain potency. The pretense that there was a worldwide consensus that Saddam had these stockpiles and that they posed a REGIONAL, let alone intercontinental threat. is laughable. And yet, it passes for history among the US political class. Astounding, yet utterly unsurprising.