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Bloggingheads
03-17-2008, 12:52 PM

bjkeefe
03-17-2008, 02:36 PM
Great diavlog. Too short, compounded by the tease of the "lost tapes." I'd like to see this pair appear more frequently, despite the sometimes bizarre notions Eli puts forth.

Wonderment
03-17-2008, 04:49 PM
Great diavlog.

I'll never know. I'm avoiding any vlogs with Eli Lake, David Frum or Dick Cheney. If I'm exposed to too many unapologetic Bushie warists, I start to present symptoms of severe depression.

cragger
03-17-2008, 06:51 PM
As the resident virulently anti-torture commenter its incumbent of me to join in the applause. Heather was superb as usual, even able to keep Eli within the bounds of sanity.

bjkeefe
03-17-2008, 08:42 PM
I'll never know. I'm avoiding any vlogs with Eli Lake, David Frum or Dick Cheney. If I'm exposed to too many unapologetic Bushie warists, I start to present symptoms of severe depression.

Your choice, of course, and who's to say about taste, but I don't mind Eli nearly as much as one might think, given our respective positions on so many issues. I guess I think Eli is smart and makes a good case for the other side. To be sure, he needs to be paired with someone as sharp as Heather to keep him from trying to play too fast and loose with the facts, but stipulating that, I always get something from hearing his point of view.

I also give Eli credit for: correctly predicting that Iran would not be invaded when it seemed nearly inevitable a while back, making a clear statement against torture (mostly), and showing some indications of admitting that he and his fellow neocons have gotten a few things wrong. Long way to go yet on that last, but the first derivative is positive.

Plus, irrational or not, he just seems like a likable guy. I'm sure if we were friends, we'd spend 95% of our time arguing, but anyone who wants to be Jerry Garcia can't be all bad.

claymisher
03-17-2008, 11:13 PM
Heather is one of the best people on here, and Eli is absolutely the worst. It's obvious he doesn't even believe his own sophistry. I don't care if he has cool friends. He's a obsolete neocon robot. Here's an idea: put him on with Rachel Sklar. Then they can quibble and cavil all they want.

I'd like to see Heather talk to someone sane so she wouldn't have to waste her time dealing with nonsense. I'd like to hear what she has to say.

bjkeefe
03-17-2008, 11:32 PM
claymisher:

Here's an idea: put him on with Rachel Sklar.

Think either of them would get the chance to complete even one sentence? ;^)

I don't think it's a waste to have Heather on with Eli, although I agree it would be good to see her in other pairings, too. ('Bout time for her and Rosa Brooks to have another conversation, especially in light of their Obama vs. Clinton leanings.) Like it or not, Eli represents a viewpoint which is shared by a lot of people in this country, and more importantly, by a lot of people with clout. I think it's a good thing to hear from him, and an especially good thing to see how his arguments can be taken apart by someone capable.

TwinSwords
03-18-2008, 03:55 AM
I think it's a good thing to ... see how [Eli's] arguments can be taken apart by someone capable [Heather].

This is the truth. While it would in fact be nice to see Heather talk to someone sane, and we could all learn a lot from her in other pairings, you are correct: It's useful for all of us to see how she so easily handles Eli, how well she refutes his arguments. Democrats need more role models like her. The odds are so stacked against "the left" in the media, and most of the liberals who do make it to the MSM are so compromised and mealy-mouthed, it is truly a breath of fresh air to hear a forceful and unapologetic advocate for liberal values who can run circles around conservatives.

soibois
03-18-2008, 02:21 PM
This is the kind of streamlining that will get us somewhere. (http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/9454?in=00:13:30&out=00:13:38)

claymisher
03-18-2008, 04:54 PM
Great link!

I do admire her deftness. She's great at narrowing in to the source of the bullshit. Bob should study her in order to better deal with Mickey.

look
03-18-2008, 05:03 PM
I think she should have her own show.

olmeta
03-19-2008, 08:59 PM
I love Eli, and she's good too. Together they often have more to say than 10 other vloggers selected at random. But it I think she thoroughly botched her own question of whether Saddam had the will and capability to use terrorism against the US. -and thus did he merit decapitation through force -(see the last chapter of the video)

Presented with a litany of Saddam's documented terrorist programs (planned or conducted) in cooperation with a range of Jihadists over several years, she gaffes:

"Yes, Sadam tried to foment Jihad in Saudi Arabia and kill our ex-pres, but there were other things he didn't try."

You are right, there were many things he did not try.

Then,

"I see nothing (in this report) to suggest that Saddam had the capabilities to mount a terrorist attack in the US?"

Exactly what sort of capabilities does she think one must possess to be an effective terrorist on even the highest order? Didn't 19 motivated Muslims recently demonstrate how little one really needs to inflict big time pain on a free society? Those idiots had passports, a sympathetic sugar daddy and the steady stomach to butcher a few flight attendants at altitude with a 99 cent box cutter. Something tells me Saddam could scrounge together the resources.

bjkeefe
03-19-2008, 11:02 PM
olmeta:

Something tells me Saddam could scrounge together the resources.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

The point is, he didn't. I think Heather was right about this. Say what you will about Saddam, he was too wily to engage the US head-on using terrorist attacks.

I trust you're not one of those who thinks he had anything to do with 9/11.

olmeta
03-20-2008, 11:18 AM
There is no evidence he had anything to do with 9-11. I only wish to expose an all-too-common false argument, regurgitated here without comment, that insists he had neither the record, the will nor the capacity to engage in terror of a high order.

I'm glad we changed the regime.

bjkeefe
03-20-2008, 12:38 PM
olmeta:

I guess I can agree with all that, although I'm not at all happy about how the regime was changed.

piscivorous
03-20-2008, 01:25 PM
Up until some time shortly before the first cruise missile was launched Saddam had the option to call the whole thing off by agreeing to leave. He chose not to. So we removed him with the only option, for removing him from power, left available to us. Having taken that step we accrued the obligation, whether you agreed with the original decision or not, to hold the situation together until some form of civility can displace the the bitter divides that tear at the fabric of that very traumatized and brutalized society. Has this transition been carried of perfectly, far from it, but then again no conflict has ever been waged without it's fair share of deadly mistakes.

Wonderment
03-20-2008, 03:57 PM
Up until some time shortly before the first cruise missile was launched Saddam had the option to call the whole thing off by agreeing to leave. He chose not to. So we removed him with the only option, for removing him from power, left available to us.

There was no legitimate reason using massive death, destruction and mayhem to change Iraq's regime. It was an illegal and immoral war, for which, I'll grant you, Hillary Clinton and many other Democrats share some of the blame.

Since the Bush regime believes so much in spreading democracy, it should have called for a secret ballot referendum on whether or not Iraqis wanted a US invasion to create democracy by the sword in their country. My bet is that you would have had a 90% majority against "shock and awe." In any case, difficult as carrying out such a referendum might have been, anyone who performed the thought experiment and empathized for a second with the Iraqi people would have concluded that the war's logic was perverse.

Iraq never threatened the USA. There was no link between Iraq and the USA's serious terrorist enemies. The rest of the world -- minus the coaltion of the bullied, the equally crazed Blair and a couple of right-wing Euro leaders in Spain and Italy (since repudiated and long gone) -- rejected the idea as brutal, unnecessary and even crazy. That should have sufficed as a substitute for the "referendum" I mentioned above.