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View Full Version : Politics Is In, Spring Fashion Is Out


Bloggingheads
01-31-2008, 05:50 PM

somerandomdude
01-31-2008, 06:39 PM
Hot! God damn this is hot!

The two of them look quite similar I think.

Wonderment
01-31-2008, 06:56 PM
Interesting thoughts by Megan and Garance in the race/gender segment.

It seems to me -- bearing in mind that campaign history passes at warp speed and causes everyone to lose all sense of perspective -- that if Obama wins, the tipping point will indeed have been when the Clintons played the race card and made Dem. voters gag, blink hard and rethink their preference.

It is not so much that Obama is winning hearts and minds, but that the Clintons -- she first with the demeaning LBJ-is-more-important-than-MLK comment, and he with the Jesse Jackson comparison -- are losing.

It's not that anyone thinks the Clintons are racists; it's that we are reminded in the ugliest way that the Clintons will do anything to win, including playing the race card.

We knew this 16 years ago when Clinton rushed back to Arkansas to sign the death warrant and execute a mentally disabled black man in order to show how "electable" he was for the New Hampshire primary. But many voters thought the Dark Side of Billary had been replaced by the kinder, gentler, nonpartisan global philanthropist persona/distingushed NY liberal senator. Now we are reminded that the leopard cannot change his/her spots.

On the gender issue, the one-two punching Billary is too androgynous (if not downright patriarchal) to make feminists proud. With Bill on the loose there is a lingering doubt if she can be a female president without the Barry Bonds asterisk next to her name.

piscivorous
01-31-2008, 08:20 PM
... if Obama wins, the tipping point will indeed have been when the Clintons played the race card and made Dem. voters gag, blink hard and rethink their preference...

It's not that anyone thinks the Clintons are racists...
Talk about double standards. If a Republican had done this the cries of racist would be have made 4" headlines in so many papers and the caterwauling on this site would have echoed these sentiments. One needs to remember that Arkansas was a slave state and that bigotry in this state was just as prevalent as the other southern states, that so many here have harped on, so how do you know that Bill Clinton is not a closet bigot. After all he will say and do anything to gain power and that includes pandering to people he has no regard for and that could just as well apply to a class of people as an individual.
Slave State:
Any of the 15 states of the Union in which slavery was legal before the Civil War, including Alabama, Arkansas, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Mississippi, Missouri, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and Virginia.

piscivorous
01-31-2008, 08:45 PM
In a more serious vein how does Jessie Jackson greet Bill Clinton, the next time they meet, given his slur of Obama's victory being no more serious than Mr Jackson's victory in the same state. Will he take that as the insult it was or does he kiss Bill's ass and all is forgiven.

piscivorous
01-31-2008, 09:43 PM
If this is true Obama: Decriminalize Pot (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/01/31/obama-test-decriminalize-pot_n_84277.html) he might just get my vote because if there is one "war" that is unwinnable it is the "War on Drugs".

threep
01-31-2008, 10:15 PM
Laughing with or at (http://www.bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/8429?in=00:28:35)?

bkjazfan
02-01-2008, 09:46 AM
I was listening to talk radio yesterday and I heard a clip from '04 when Obama was for decriminalizing pot. He has made a statement since then that he is not for it.

uncle ebeneezer
02-01-2008, 01:35 PM
This campaign definitely has the Law & Order plot-twist thing going on, but unfortunately Carter seems pretty grumpy at the idea of entering the race:

http://www.theonion.com/content/opinion/i_got_what_america_needs_right

Wolfgangus
02-01-2008, 04:05 PM
I hope Obama wins. Not only is Hillary divisive in the general election, so is Bill. There are a lot of republicans that still think he is the lowest scum on earth for the Lewinsky scandal.

If Hillary wins I will vote for her, because the alternative is worse, but it will definitely be voting for the lesser of two evils. In Arkansas when an aide brought up a senior-citizen relief package at a meeting with Bill, Hillary interrupted to say "the last thing we need to do is pass legislation to help people that didn't vote for Bill.".

She is divisive, vindictive, petty and a liar. She is still claiming she didn't know she was voting for war in the most important vote of her life. Her idiotic defense that she didn't mention Reagan's name when excoriating Obama for mentioning a Republican is reminiscent of Bill wagging his finger at us and saying "I did not have sex with that woman"; a technically true but purposely misleading statement. If Hillary gets the nomination I fear the two of them have enough baggage to lose the general election. I'd be morally forced to vote for her, but afterward I'd have to burn my voter registration card and request a new one, just to get the stink off it.

As Susan Sarandon said recently, there is no reason a woman should not hold that office: Just not that woman.

bjkeefe
02-01-2008, 05:08 PM
Wolf:

My feelings exactly.

piscivorous
02-01-2008, 05:10 PM
While the Lewinsky scandal was the the seminal event that allowed the Republicans to successfully impeach President Clinton it was far and away not the thing that had the Republicans out for his scalp. I am getting a real kick out of hearing and reading about President Clinton's behavior, in somewhat milder terms, but confirming the gist of the Republican complaints and animosity of his underhanded and dishonest political tactics he deployed throughout his original run for President and during both his terms.

bjkeefe
02-01-2008, 05:48 PM
Pisc:

Nah. You guys on the right have never admitted the real reason that you hated Clinton so much: he was, plain and simple, a better politician. He knew how to bow to the inevitable Republican wishes but claim them as his own initiatives, and he must have pulled that one off half a dozen times at least.

He also knew how to rally public opinion when he had a stronger hand. For example, he was able to portray, with great success, that the Republican Congress caused the government to shut down. When he got impeached, he became a hero for standing up to the Starr Inquisition.

The final measure: what ever happened to Newt Gingrich?

Granted, he tore apart his own party with his triangulation and philandering. But while he was in office, he consistently kicked ass. Just admit it. That's the real reason you all hate him -- he beat you at your own game.

piscivorous
02-01-2008, 06:10 PM
Actually I am rather indifferent to President Clinton as a politician. I agree with your assessment that his major "success" were essentially Republican initiatives that he managed to commandeer and that his rhetorical skills were unmatched by any Republican. But not bring a Republican I was actually pleased with the results of Welfare reform, NAFTA and the intervention in Bosnia. I am not particularly concerned with which party gets credit for accomplishing policy goals that I consider important. I just think his propensity to misuse his position of power to abuse and debase individuals makes him a pretty lousy human being.

Wolfgangus
02-01-2008, 07:12 PM
I just think his propensity to misuse his position of power to abuse and debase individuals makes him a pretty lousy human being.

I never thought the day would come when I would agree with PISC. Bill Clinton is a liar, quite probably a rapist, a cheat and an egomaniac. And speaking of welfare reform, his "reform" quite probably killed people for political advantage, it at least created misery and despair. Bill Clinton is a cold calculating asshole, and his wife is a bigger one. The only reason they seek the office is they like the power and being treated like royalty and they want their shot at the history books; and not as just a footnote of "also ran".

The recession on the next watch is inevitable; with baby boomers retiring, national debt soaring, and the dollar plummeting due to our awful interest rates. Foreign countries are no longer buying dollars; we don't pay enough interest on it. The stock market tipping point is this year; the predicted point when retiring baby boomers start taking more money out of the market than they are putting into it.

But with Bill and Hillary in office, we are going to be screwed to the power of two; because they will preside over the same deadlocked government we've had for years. Unlike my spineless party, the Republicans are willing to unload every gun and stand together and filibuster to block legislation they don't like, and for reasons I cannot fathom, we surrender. I don't want four more years of doing nothing.

piscivorous
02-01-2008, 07:17 PM
While not a religious man I now find myself having to rethink this position as it appears miracles really do occur.

P.S. You better watch it I included a linked to a video, in one of my comments, with a minor reference to the rape accusations against President Clinton's and the response were scathing and intense. (edited for clarification)

Baltimoron
02-01-2008, 10:37 PM
No, you're thinking of the Sicha/Fine debacle.

Both these women have well-defined personalities!

Baltimoron
02-01-2008, 10:50 PM
The question of how American politics favors daughters/wives of male politicians as legs (pun intended)! Speaker Pelosi, Gov. Sebelius, and all those Old South wives elected to the statehouse reinforce this. There was also the wive of that Midwest governor who died in the 90s? Isn't Gov. Napolitano also a political brat? What about Kay Bailey Hutchinson? If not, these women might be the first real women in the mix! This might be Annoying Trend #2, #1 being the propensity to favor former generals. Could there be an entire raft of grad theses resulting from this diavlog? I wonder, when will the first real woman candidate seek the party nomination?

Another point that deserves highlighting is the Clintons' depth with Hispanics. Generally, Hispanics are considered more conservative, so, if Obama unites African-Americans across class lines, it looks very noxious for a future big-tent Democratic party after it wins in 2008 (???). The party split between mods/blue dogs and libs could be reinforced by an Hispanic-African contest, with whites with no easy ally. Considering the last census, where the fastest-growing parts of the population are Hispanic-and-Asian-Americans, the mods/blue dogs could be the party majority in the future.

Baltimoron
02-01-2008, 10:54 PM
Oh, Lord, don't talk about the Old South! The GOP is now the de facto southern party, so it will get scrutinized for its views on race.

Baltimoron
02-01-2008, 10:57 PM
No, he just announces him as America's smoothest cracker!

Baltimoron
02-01-2008, 11:01 PM
What? That he played the game better than anyone else? Stop whining about losing! If the GOP had better candidates and a better president, the Clinton tactics would really be a counter-productive. As it is, Billary still gets the benefit of the doubt for being "GOOD" at what they do! FDR was an SOB too, but does anyone recall all of his histrionics?

Baltimoron
02-01-2008, 11:04 PM
But, to be fair, no one knew Newt (damn that was hard to type!) was as maritally-challenged as Bill during the impeachment fracas! Kudos to those philandering southern men!

Baltimoron
02-01-2008, 11:13 PM
One day, no shit! I wish we could elect two women as articulate, intelligent, and photogenic (and sartorially talented) as Megan and Garance in America! Both deserve a chance to be sliced and diced, impoverished, and their lives generally wrecked in the sausage grinder as thoroughly as any man!

On the clothing issue, why can't a woman dress to the nines, leave half the office gaping, and lead? Men do what is necessary, and that means appearance, too. There's allowance for the eccentric (and there should be room for a female nerd, too!), but generally, a woman shouldn't have to be masculine to use all her weapons!

Besides, and this comes up in the LBGT debate, too, we all have our peccadilloes, but we're homo sapiens, not erectus!

One of the best diavlogs in this new year-no matter what the plumbling used!

Baltimoron
02-01-2008, 11:28 PM
Seriously, Reihan Salam might have the best answer (http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/8469?in=00:01:50&out=00:09:38) in the first topic of the Salam-Hayes diavlog.

piscivorous
02-01-2008, 11:39 PM
Gee how is it that it takes SOB for a Democratic President to be considered successful?

Baltimoron
02-02-2008, 12:05 AM
Because, unlike the aombie-like Republicans, Democratic rank-and-file are fractious and a great deal of Democratic party apparatus, like PR in primaries, accentuate division. It takes an SOB sometimes to get the factions together.

bjkeefe
02-02-2008, 03:03 AM
Because, unlike the aombie-like Republicans, Democratic rank-and-file are fractious and a great deal of Democratic party apparatus, like PR in primaries, accentuate division. It takes an SOB sometimes to get the factions together.

Good answer. I almost agree. If Obama becomes the nominee, I hope he'll hire one as a chief of staff.

Wonderment
02-02-2008, 05:04 AM
But with Bill and Hillary in office, we are going to be screwed to the power of two; because they will preside over the same deadlocked government we've had for years. Unlike my spineless party, the Republicans are willing to unload every gun and stand together and filibuster to block legislation they don't like, and for reasons I cannot fathom, we surrender. I don't want four more years of doing nothing.


I have always been deeply disappointed by the Clintons, never voted for him and never planned to vote for her. Characterizing them as opportunists and unethical is entirely fair and accurate.


HOWEVER, the prospect of any of the Republicans being elected in 08 is so terrifying to me that I won't just hold my nose and vote for Billary, I will walk door to door and beg for others to vote for her/them too.

Having watched the horrifying spectacle of several Republican debates in which the candidates (Ron Paul excepted) tried to out-do themselves to prove how murderous and xenophobic they were, I am scared shitless of the prospect of another Republican victory.

McCain, in some ways, is the creepiest of them all. He may have distanced himself from Bushian torture doctrine, but I take his ba-ba-bomb Iran sentiments very seriously. He has promised the nation more wars ("straight talk") and has boasted of an American presence in Iraq for a century. He will appoint the key SC justice to give right wing extremists a majority on the court, and he will continue to degrade the country's reputation abroad.

Tim_G
02-02-2008, 08:06 AM
Dingalink (http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/8429?in=00:05:57)

I thought that Bill Clinton had spent a lot of "reputational capital" on Marc Rich. But, apparantly time erases any loss of "reputational capital" because most people seem to have forgotten. If she wins, this will all be forgotten by most, except for those who personally got trampled.

Toby2520
02-02-2008, 12:07 PM
This commentary misses the point that the applicable sexism in our society today is female-centric...in a word misandry.

Consider the following points:

1.) Hillary has been using her husband as an attack dog against Obama, but escapes criticism because of her gender. While the former President is widely condemned, Hillary is even portrayed sympathetically for "putting up with Bill's antics yet again". In contrast, when Elizabeth Edwards criticized Ann Coulter for Ann's distorted criticisms of her husband, John was ridiculed as hiding behind Elizabeth's skirts.

2.) Hillary's misty-eyed moment in New Hampshire was understandable given the stress of the campaign, but was motivated by self-pity. When male public personalities get weepy out of self pity, we condemn them as in the case of Jimmy Swaggart. However, if the emotion reflects genuine concern for others, as when former President Bush described his difficult decision to send troops to the First Gulf War, we can respect the feelings that caused the person's (regardless of gender) display.

3.) It was particularly evident in the Nevada debate that Hillary's sex afforded her the special privilege to preempt her male opponents, and the moderator, if she chose to speak out-of-turn. There are numerous examples, but consider that she was permitted to ask two debate questions of the other candidates although the moderator enforced a limit of only one to the male opponents.

testostyrannical
02-02-2008, 08:30 PM
Ms. Franke-Ruta's print does look nice, as best as can be discerned through the blur of the bloggingheads window.

berrigrl
02-02-2008, 10:46 PM
I find it fascinating that this blog would begin by pointing out the dearth of women on the bloggingheads site, an insightful references to the points you later make about society's views on women and their perceived lack of competence and leadership ability; however, you then proceed to talk about spring fashion, which invariably leads one to believe that women are merely vacuous consumers concerned with superficial and meaningless concerns.

Baltimoron
02-02-2008, 10:50 PM
I find it fascinating that this blog would begin by pointing out the dearth of women on the bloggingheads site, an insightful references to the points you later make about society's views on women and their perceived lack of competence and leadership ability; however, you then proceed to talk about spring fashion, which invariably leads one to believe that women are merely vacuous consumers concerned with superficial and meaningless concerns.

No, actually, we're all metrosexuals here!

(I was joking, of course! I didn't mean to drag anyone out of the closet!) Ahem...I routinely wear non-matching socks and no underwear!